The Universal End Game - "Purpose"
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15-12-2014, 06:00 PM
RE: The Universal End Game - "Purpose"
(15-12-2014 11:53 AM)Superluminal Wrote:  So let's look at possible versions of the future.......
- Our scientists finally work out the theory of everything (they unify gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak forces, they expand the standard model until all elementary particles are fully discovered, they work out how new universes arise and they work out the conclusion to our own universe.
- A perfect governing system is developed, stable and lucrative, diverse and free from the pitfalls we see today.
- Our atheists finally discover an elegant and concise argument to convince all that religion is guff and a waste of time.
- Our artists devise the perfect music, perfect paintings, the perfect movie.
- We develop the most exquisite dinning experience
- We develop the perfect sport
The creators of our virtual reality having all the value that they wanted from our simulation finally decide to turn us off.
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15-12-2014, 06:52 PM
RE: The Universal End Game - "Purpose"
(15-12-2014 11:53 AM)Superluminal Wrote:  The creators of our virtual reality having all the value that they wanted from our simulation finally decide to turn us off.

FUCK. Kind of like when me and my friends were jamming in the garage and my dad would come in and say "It's late...you guys are done".

The second mouse gets the cheese.
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15-12-2014, 06:53 PM
RE: The Universal End Game - "Purpose"
(15-12-2014 06:52 PM)The Drake Wrote:  
(15-12-2014 11:53 AM)Superluminal Wrote:  The creators of our virtual reality having all the value that they wanted from our simulation finally decide to turn us off.

FUCK. Kind of like when me and my friends were jamming in the garage and my dad would come in and say "It's late...you guys are done".

Sorry...this belongs to Stevil.

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16-12-2014, 02:11 PM
RE: The Universal End Game - "Purpose"
(15-12-2014 05:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-12-2014 12:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't think your post qualifies as a straw man, but it is rooted in false information, which is likely not your fault. Where the Bible says we will praise God for eternity has be taken in the context of the many other things it says we will be doing.

The Hebrews in the OT did did not believe in an afterlife. Sheol was not heaven.
You have demonstrated not one reason any modern human should look at the Bible with having any sort of authority, at all. It's a collection of human texts, voted non-unanimously into a canon with countless changes and errors.

Ecclesiastes 3:
[18] I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.
[19] For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
[20] All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
[21] Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?

Interesting. So, you are claiming that in the doctrine of the afterlife, the OT, written by a variety of people and groups, is univocal in doctrine? You are saying it doesn't offer anything that seems like it's contrary to your statements here?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-12-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: The Universal End Game - "Purpose"
(15-12-2014 11:53 AM)Superluminal Wrote:  So this post could get quite long... I will try to be as concise as possible. I've been thinking a lot about what we know about the universe and what the possible long term outcome possibilities could be for us in relationship to the religious need to have a "purpose." Specifically, I feel that when you examine the possible long term outcomes of both the universe and what religion supposes in an afterlife the results are essentially just as pointless(in the context that religion views existence).

First, I'd like to outline that I think generally most religions that believe in an afterlife suppose a "perfect paradise" scenario of some sort. By definition, in my opinion, any state of "perfection" is static. That is to say, there can't be multiple versions of perfect, so once you reach whatever your idea of perfection is, in order to stay there your existence must become static to maintain it. Others I have talked to amongst the religious however have stated that they don't think "Heaven" is perfect, but simply a higher existence where they will at least be happy. I'll address both of these possibilities in the list below.

So let's look at possible versions of the future.......

1.) We ride it out till the end. No matter how far we advance or don't advance our existence, in the end the universe either collapses on itself, or is slowly destroyed over an unimaginable amount of time by an inescapable heat death, or some other version of space-time coming to an end. There is no afterlife, there is no escape. The entire universe ultimately perishes and everything and everyone that ever existed essentially had no real point. I would suggest that in this scenario, "It was fun while it lasted," but really there was no "purpose" to existence other than what we imagined for ourselves at the time.

2.) The laws of physics end up allowing for an advanced civilization that can essentially through technology become godlike in it's manipulation of the universe around us. Whatever it is that we've become by that point can preserve our existence through preventing the universe from being destroyed, or triggering a causal inflation event, or infinite virtual reality, or..... who knows, the method is irrelevant. The outcome being that these advanced lifeforms can preserve themselves infinitely in a state of "happiness" or whatever they view as desirable. In this scenario I would pose the question, what exactly would be the "purpose" anymore? Here you have beings that 100% know all possible outcomes and essentially are just existing in a fabricated reality forever of their own choosing. What possible reason could they contrive to convince themselves to bother going on existing? Would they introduce suffering and chaos just to keep themselves amused? Would they purposefully become ignorant of their own self-created reality to induce a false sense of reason to continue existing?

3.) We become an incredibly advanced civilization of godlike intelligences but instead of reaching scenario #2, our ruthless intellect makes us realize without a doubt that scenario #2 is coming and just effectively choose to die off because we are smart enough to see what is coming and that there is really no point. Basically we kill ourselves out of boredom and we are too disconnected from our biological survival instincts by that point to keep going in the face of cold hard knowledge of what the future brings.

4.) All of us atheists are wrong. We die and go to some magical perfect theme park in the sky forever overseen by some omnipotent entity. Okay, now what? I fail to see how this differs any from scenario #2 as far as having any "purpose" after that. In fact, it sounds terrible. I would say that fundamentally, this religious scenario fails to provide any more meaningful "purpose" to life than any of the more realistic ones. We just sit there forever in this reality, only instead of creating it ourselves, something else is doing it for us. It is either "perfect" and therefore static and unchanging, or it is just a higher form of endless "happiness" and therefore just as endlessly uninteresting and pointless as scenario 2.

5.) We become as advanced as scenario #2, but it turns out it isn't so easy to persist indefinitely. It is instead an unending struggle of trying to extend our godlike existence beyond the natural limits of the universe. This may be somewhat more interesting than scenario 2 or 4, but is really the same fundamentally: an unending existence that appears to have no other purpose but it's own preservation.

There are a few more scenarios you could bring up that are slight variations on the above, but essentially my point is: I can see no way in which ANY form of deity either godlike or simply an advanced intelligence could provide any significantly different long term outcome that provides for more "purpose" than our natural universe does or will. I also suggest that there is a good chance in my mind that we will eventually advance ourselves enough that we will struggle to see any real reason for continuing, and that this advanced state is basically the same as we currently imagine a "paradise" to be.

So then, if you want to create purpose for yourself, in my opinion that would start with rejecting the time-based paradigm that much of religion essentially espouses: that the value and purpose of life is inextricably entangled with existing as long as possible.

Well I hope I have organized my thoughts in a somewhat coherent manner......

I've been thinking more about your original post. Are you saying that atheists don't need to discover a purpose(s) for their lives or the lives of others?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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