The Universe Was Never a Singularity
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-03-2013, 01:48 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(14-03-2013 11:36 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Often theists have made the argument that the universe comes from a singularity (BBT) and claim that only God could have created that singularity. I made my arguments that the universe was never a singularity, here: http://soi.blogspot.com/
Comments?

Inflation theory allows for expansion at speeds greater than the speed of light so your argument isn't strong against inflation theory. Inflation theory is widely accepted so your argument isn't compelling to most of us who accept inflation theory.

Now if you don't accept inflation theory, then your argument holds as far as I can tell.
St
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2013, 09:49 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(14-03-2013 12:10 PM)Superluminal Wrote:  
(14-03-2013 11:36 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Often theists have made the argument that the universe comes from a singularity (BBT) and claim that only God could have created that singularity. I made my arguments that the universe was never a singularity, here: http://soi.blogspot.com/
Comments?
Actually the total energy/mass of the universe may very well have been and still could be a total of zero. As Hawking would say, "the ultimate free lunch."
I'm not sure if one can call quantum vacuum fluctuation as zero energy. Many have tried to link vacuum energy to Dark energy, but these attempts have failed miserably. Also, in spontaneous symmetry breaking by which the Higgs boson arises, we don't really fully understand what is vacuum energy, except that we need its existence to make the Standard Model consistent. These are interesting issues, but still unresolved.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2013, 09:56 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(15-03-2013 01:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(14-03-2013 11:36 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Often theists have made the argument that the universe comes from a singularity (BBT) and claim that only God could have created that singularity. I made my arguments that the universe was never a singularity, here: http://soi.blogspot.com/
Comments?

Inflation theory allows for expansion at speeds greater than the speed of light so your argument isn't strong against inflation theory. Inflation theory is widely accepted so your argument isn't compelling to most of us who accept inflation theory.

Now if you don't accept inflation theory, then your argument holds as far as I can tell.
St
None of my arguments are against inflation theory. Expansion at speeds greater than the speed of light , which is necessary for inflation theory, refers to spacetime expansion, not matter exceeding it locally.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2013, 10:13 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(14-03-2013 02:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(14-03-2013 01:17 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I was under the impression that it was 0.

Gravity can have a negative energy. It is zero. See Krauss' "A Universe From Nothing".
The problem with Kauss' arguments is ithey leave the door wide open for: 1) how do you know that the energy of the universe is exactly zero? Where's the evidence? 2) No one has ever observed a universe “popping” into existence. How would the universe do that? Then you need to come up with hyper-laws, laws that exist before the universe existed, and how would you account for this?
You can see there is a can of worms with Krauss and those who claim the universe popped out of existence from "nothing". OTOH, stating the universe was never a singularity forces everyone to think in a different direction.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-03-2013, 12:01 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(15-03-2013 09:56 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 01:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Inflation theory allows for expansion at speeds greater than the speed of light so your argument isn't strong against inflation theory. Inflation theory is widely accepted so your argument isn't compelling to most of us who accept inflation theory.

Now if you don't accept inflation theory, then your argument holds as far as I can tell.
St
None of my arguments are against inflation theory. Expansion at speeds greater than the speed of light , which is necessary for inflation theory, refers to spacetime expansion, not matter exceeding it locally.

Gravity didn't split off to be its own force until after the singularity stopped being a singularity. Without gravity there is no Schwarzchild radius. Also Schwarzchild radii are computed assuming that the local space isn't expanding(it works because the amount of space expansion around a star is so negliable that it is essentially 0). Can a black hole even form in an area of space that is expanding faster then the speed of light? My intuition says no.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-03-2013, 01:17 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(14-03-2013 11:36 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Often theists have made the argument that the universe comes from a singularity (BBT) and claim that only God could have created that singularity. I made my arguments that the universe was never a singularity, here: http://soi.blogspot.com/
Comments?
I understand that arguing with theists can be tiresome and that they will take any opportunity they can imagine to point at the universe and say, "See...God did it". Nevertheless, these theists just don't know what was going on during the earliest stages of expansion, and neither does anyone else. One of my favorite Physicists (Cosmologist) - Lawrence Krauss - puts forth some very plausible arguments, but Lawrence will be the first to tell you that he is only engaging in intelligent/learned speculation.

Currently, our telescopic technology only lets us view the universe to the time when it was about 370,000 years old and just transitioning from a plasma to matter as we know it. During the first 370,000 years, the universe was a relatively uniform plasma that was opaque - so we can see no further (http://preposterousuniverse.com/writings...rly.html). So...until we figure out how to get some more data that will let us confirm what was happening at an earlier time, then all we can do is speculate.

Hope this helps.

Julius
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-03-2013, 02:29 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(16-03-2013 01:17 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(14-03-2013 11:36 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Often theists have made the argument that the universe comes from a singularity (BBT) and claim that only God could have created that singularity. I made my arguments that the universe was never a singularity, here: http://soi.blogspot.com/
Comments?
I understand that arguing with theists can be tiresome and that they will take any opportunity they can imagine to point at the universe and say, "See...God did it". Nevertheless, these theists just don't know what was going on during the earliest stages of expansion, and neither does anyone else. One of my favorite Physicists (Cosmologist) - Lawrence Krauss - puts forth some very plausible arguments, but Lawrence will be the first to tell you that he is only engaging in intelligent/learned speculation.

Currently, our telescopic technology only lets us view the universe to the time when it was about 370,000 years old and just transitioning from a plasma to matter as we know it. During the first 370,000 years, the universe was a relatively uniform plasma that was opaque - so we can see no further (http://preposterousuniverse.com/writings...rly.html). So...until we figure out how to get some more data that will let us confirm what was happening at an earlier time, then all we can do is speculate.

Hope this helps.

Julius

We need much more than better telescopes. We need new physics. Our current physics fails us at planck densities. We can't even say there was a singularity except in the case where singularity means unknown state/physics.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-03-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(16-03-2013 01:17 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(14-03-2013 11:36 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Often theists have made the argument that the universe comes from a singularity (BBT) and claim that only God could have created that singularity. I made my arguments that the universe was never a singularity, here: http://soi.blogspot.com/
Comments?
Currently, our telescopic technology only lets us view the universe to the time when it was about 370,000 years old and just transitioning from a plasma to matter as we know it. During the first 370,000 years, the universe was a relatively uniform plasma that was opaque - so we can see no further (http://preposterousuniverse.com/writings...rly.html). So...until we figure out how to get some more data that will let us confirm what was happening at an earlier time, then all we can do is speculate.

Hope this helps.

Julius

One reason why we need gravitational wave detector such as the LIGO to see beyond the opaque plasma.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-03-2013, 07:30 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2013 07:35 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(15-03-2013 09:49 AM)zaybu Wrote:  I'm not sure if one can call quantum vacuum fluctuation as zero energy. Many have tried to link vacuum energy to Dark energy, but these attempts have failed miserably. Also, in spontaneous symmetry breaking by which the Higgs boson arises, we don't really fully understand what is vacuum energy, except that we need its existence to make the Standard Model consistent. These are interesting issues, but still unresolved.

By vacuum energy, you mean the energy of empty space correct? Is this not what dark energy is...?

Einstein cosmological constant is the variable that balanced out the attractive gravitational force with a repulsive one (thinking at the time the universe was static). Turns out after realizing he didn't need it, we realize we do need it. It is the energy of empty space which is causing the acceleration of the expansion, which for simplicity sake we termed Dark Energy. So what do you mean by people failing to find a link?

(15-03-2013 10:13 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(14-03-2013 02:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Gravity can have a negative energy. It is zero. See Krauss' "A Universe From Nothing".
The problem with Kauss' arguments is ithey leave the door wide open for: 1) how do you know that the energy of the universe is exactly zero? Where's the evidence? 2) No one has ever observed a universe “popping” into existence. How would the universe do that? Then you need to come up with hyper-laws, laws that exist before the universe existed, and how would you account for this?
You can see there is a can of worms with Krauss and those who claim the universe popped out of existence from "nothing". OTOH, stating the universe was never a singularity forces everyone to think in a different direction.

Perhaps there is a multiverse with specific laws that cause the creation of universes. Or perhaps there is nothing. If the nothing before our universe is anything like the nothing inside out universe, then nothing is unstable. You might say, well there needed to be the law that nothing was unstable for it to be unstable, therefore with a law, it is not really nothing. Well it's certainly an interesting question, one that can't be answered at this time. I need to study more to get a better understanding of why nothing appears so unstable.

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-03-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: The Universe Was Never a Singularity
(16-03-2013 07:30 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 09:49 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Many have tried to link vacuum energy to Dark energy, but these attempts have failed miserably.

1) By vacuum energy, you mean the energy of empty space correct? Is this not what dark energy is...?

Einstein cosmological constant is the variable that balanced out the attractive gravitational force with a repulsive one (thinking at the time the universe was static). Turns out after realizing he didn't need it, we realize we do need it. It is the energy of empty space which is causing the acceleration of the expansion, which for simplicity sake we termed Dark Energy. So what do you mean by people failing to find a link?

(15-03-2013 10:13 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Then you need to come up with hyper-laws, laws that exist before the universe existed, and how would you account for this?

2) Perhaps there is a multiverse with specific laws that cause the creation of universes. Or perhaps there is nothing. If the nothing before our universe is anything like the nothing inside out universe, then nothing is unstable. You might say, well there needed to be the law that nothing was unstable for it to be unstable, therefore with a law, it is not really nothing. Well it's certainly an interesting question, one that can't be answered at this time. I need to study more to get a better understanding of why nothing appears so unstable.

1) If you calculate the vacuum energy of the universe using QFT, you get 10^122 times the Dark Energy needed to get the universe acceleraring at the present rate.
Quote:
2) There are many versions of the multiverse - besides there are untestable, none are satisfactory.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: