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The Untruth About Donald Trump
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28-02-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 07:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 07:09 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  If you're saying that the content within the second quote is an ad hom, you're wrong in doing so. There is more content in his post from which that quote takes from - and it definitely does address the content of the post it itself is aimed at.

An ad hominem is character assassination at the omission of rebuttal. His appraisal of your character was a conclusion following a rebuttal of your questions rhetorical purpose, thus not an ad hom.

No, an ad hominem may be an element of a larger argument; it need not stand alone.
...Which is not, at all, at odds with the quick explanation I gave. Expand on what you mean if you think so.
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28-02-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 07:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 08:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I get that you don't have the mental capacity to evaluate the validity of an argument independently of who presents it and that's fine with me, but then you should at least be honest about it and admit that you're not an intelligent or critical thinker.

If a 3 year old girl looks at you and says: "I am going to kill you", I doubt that you will panic.

If an armed 25 year old looks at you and says: "I am going to kill you" , I think you'll be shaking in your boots.

Who says something can be more important than any other factor.

Trump is emotionally totally unstable. No matter what he says, he is not suitable for a presidency.

False equivalence:

You are comparing single declarative assertions of intent. In deciding the truthfullness of a statement of intent one may assess the stater, because the contention is intent. However obviously one still cannot objectively surmise the truthfulness of the statement even then; so not only is it a False equivalence but it doesn't prove your point to begin with.

We are talking about argumenation. Arguments hold multiple, and possibly multiple types of, speech acts; thus creating rhetorical value (good or bad) that exists independent of whom put the argument foward.
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28-02-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(27-02-2016 11:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  Molyneux? That anarchist guy Lumi had a hard-on for? Laughat How the mighty have fallen.

Morondog expressing his displeasure with Molyneux and Vosur's choice.

(27-02-2016 12:14 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Nice ad hominem. You're a real critical thinker, aren't you? Laugh out load

Vosur claiming that Morondog's displeasure is an ad hominem. It isn't. It would have been, had Morondog said "your argument is invalid because you posted a video of Molyneux". He didn't.

(27-02-2016 02:53 PM)Vosur Wrote:  He's not dismissing the video because there's something wrong with the arguments presented in it, but because of who made it. That's a textbook example of an ad hominem if I've ever seen one. I bet he hasn't even bothered to watch it. Drinking Beverage

That's really not an ad hominem either. It would be an ad hominem if Morondog had watched the video and his rebuttal was that Molyneux is an idiot so his argument is invalid.

(27-02-2016 08:40 PM)Vosur Wrote:  What gets my Lederhosen in a bunch is when people dismiss an argument based on who makes it, without even bothering to listen to it. That sort of arrogance, dishonesty and intellectual laziness goes against everything that we as atheists, freethinkers and proponents of science and the scientific method stand for. I don't accept that kind of behavior from theists and I sure as hell don't accept it from atheists. He's not the first one to display it here either; I reacted the same way to Bucky Ball earlier this year when he dismissed the entire academic field of Biblical scholarship for laughable reasons.

Morondog did not dismiss any argument. He simply made a comment.

(27-02-2016 08:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You've shown that you're the type of person who would immediately dismiss the arguments from both sides without even having listened to them on the basis of who they are.

Mmm nope, I haven't seen that.

(27-02-2016 08:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I did listen and the guy who was opposing Ken Ham in the debate made solid scientific arguments for why the Earth cannot be 6,000 years old even though he was a Creationist himself.

Yeah, but did you listen to Ken Ham? Tongue

(27-02-2016 08:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I get that you don't have the mental capacity to evaluate the validity of an argument independently of who presents it and that's fine with me, but then you should at least be honest about it and admit that you're not an intelligent or critical thinker.

That was a tad uncalled for, I'd say. Dismissing someone's ideas without hearing them first when that person has lost your respect does not mean you are not intelligent.

That said, Morondog's replies were perhaps a bit over the top too.

Nevertheless, Vosur, Morondog, you know I love you both Smile

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28-02-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 12:08 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 11:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  Molyneux? That anarchist guy Lumi had a hard-on for? Laughat How the mighty have fallen.

Morondog expressing his displeasure with Molyneux and Vosur's choice.

(27-02-2016 12:14 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Nice ad hominem. You're a real critical thinker, aren't you? Laugh out load

Vosur claiming that Morondog's displeasure is an ad hominem. It isn't. It would have been, had Morondog said "your argument is invalid because you posted a video of Molyneux". He didn't.

(27-02-2016 02:53 PM)Vosur Wrote:  He's not dismissing the video because there's something wrong with the arguments presented in it, but because of who made it. That's a textbook example of an ad hominem if I've ever seen one. I bet he hasn't even bothered to watch it. Drinking Beverage

That's really not an ad hominem either. It would be an ad hominem if Morondog had watched the video and his rebuttal was that Molyneux is an idiot so his argument is invalid.

(27-02-2016 08:40 PM)Vosur Wrote:  What gets my Lederhosen in a bunch is when people dismiss an argument based on who makes it, without even bothering to listen to it. That sort of arrogance, dishonesty and intellectual laziness goes against everything that we as atheists, freethinkers and proponents of science and the scientific method stand for. I don't accept that kind of behavior from theists and I sure as hell don't accept it from atheists. He's not the first one to display it here either; I reacted the same way to Bucky Ball earlier this year when he dismissed the entire academic field of Biblical scholarship for laughable reasons.

Morondog did not dismiss any argument. He simply made a comment.

(27-02-2016 08:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You've shown that you're the type of person who would immediately dismiss the arguments from both sides without even having listened to them on the basis of who they are.

Mmm nope, I haven't seen that.

(27-02-2016 08:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I did listen and the guy who was opposing Ken Ham in the debate made solid scientific arguments for why the Earth cannot be 6,000 years old even though he was a Creationist himself.

Yeah, but did you listen to Ken Ham? Tongue

(27-02-2016 08:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I get that you don't have the mental capacity to evaluate the validity of an argument independently of who presents it and that's fine with me, but then you should at least be honest about it and admit that you're not an intelligent or critical thinker.

That was a tad uncalled for, I'd say. Dismissing someone's ideas without hearing them first when that person has lost your respect does not mean you are not intelligent.

That said, Morondog's replies were perhaps a bit over the top too.

Nevertheless, Vosur, Morondog, you know I love you both Smile
You obviously don't have to explicitly say "I reject this argument because I don't like this guy" for it to be an ad hominem. Read this quote from morondog and tell me that this isn't him dismissing the guy based on who he is, rather than the validity of his arguments.

(27-02-2016 07:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  How would you feel if I posted a video by Ken Ham in support of my favoured position on politics? 'Cos that's how I feel about Molyneux. He's a crank. You citing him is embarrassing for you.

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28-02-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 12:15 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You obviously don't have to explicitly say "I reject this argument because I don't like this guy" for it to be an ad hominem. Read this quote from morondog and tell me that this isn't him dismissing the guy based on who he is, rather than the validity of his arguments.

-Look at what this guy says!
-Ok, sure. Lol, that's bullshit, he's a dumbass anyway.

=ad hominem

-Look at what this guy says!
-Nope, I'm not even going to bother, I don't care what he says.

≠ad hominem

It simply means he's not getting into that specific argument.

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28-02-2016, 12:25 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 12:19 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 12:15 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You obviously don't have to explicitly say "I reject this argument because I don't like this guy" for it to be an ad hominem. Read this quote from morondog and tell me that this isn't him dismissing the guy based on who he is, rather than the validity of his arguments.

-Look at what this guy says!
-Ok, sure. Lol, that's bullshit, he's a dumbass anyway.

=ad hominem

-Look at what this guy says!
-Nope, I'm not even going to bother, I don't care what he says.

≠ad hominem

It simply means he's not getting into that specific argument.
Yeah, I can see your point, but that second option is not much better. How is morondog ever going to have his views challenged if he refuses to listen to his ideological opponents? Tongue

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28-02-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 12:25 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 12:19 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  -Look at what this guy says!
-Ok, sure. Lol, that's bullshit, he's a dumbass anyway.

=ad hominem

-Look at what this guy says!
-Nope, I'm not even going to bother, I don't care what he says.

≠ad hominem

It simply means he's not getting into that specific argument.
Yeah, I can see your point, but that second option is not much better. How is morondog ever going to have his views challenged if he refuses to listen to his ideological opponents? Tongue

Why do you care anyway? Tongue

And have you never in your life thought about someone "I'm not listening to anything you say"?

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28-02-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 12:29 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Why do you care anyway? Tongue

And have you never in your life thought about someone "I'm not listening to anything you say"?
I was very much guilty of that when I first came here. I used to be afraid of having my views challenged and I always had this weird feeling in my stomach when listening to debates between Christian apologists and atheists. It took me a few years, but I eventually learned to be comfortable with the fact that the worst thing that can happen is that I change my mind because the evidence showed me that I was wrong. I realized that there's no reason to be afraid of being on the side of truth.

And why do I care? Because I like morondog in spite of what I said in this thread. We've known each other for a few years and I know that he's a good guy. I just wish he was less... well, I talked about that enough already. Tongue

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28-02-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
I just don't see what's not to like about a Grammar Nazi and a Moron DogCool

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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28-02-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: The Untruth About Donald Trump
(28-02-2016 07:57 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 07:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, an ad hominem may be an element of a larger argument; it need not stand alone.
...Which is not, at all, at odds with the quick explanation I gave. Expand on what you mean if you think so.

You wrote, and even highlighted, "An ad hominem is character assassination at the omission of rebuttal."

An ad hominem can be used in addition to some rebuttal in an attempt to bolster it.

What you wrote is at odds with that.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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