The Victmhood within the Black Community
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05-04-2015, 10:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2015 10:57 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
(05-04-2015 10:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The gangs don't excuse the corruption in the Police department, but that corruption doesn't excuse gangs either.
While I agree that police are in a position to protect and serve and abusing that position is terrible and shit, I can see the point of the OP that the amount of effort going into protesting Police corruption, while justified and good and should happen, doesn't happen (or at least isn't reported on as widely if it does) when it comes to a much larger issue that is gang violence.

Civil disobedience, peaceful assembly, and protests are tools used to show displeasure and petition for changes or reform. The illegal actives that gangs can engage in are already illegal. Presumably they should be handled by the police, when they're not busy harassing law-abiding citizens.


(05-04-2015 10:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Gang violence is more than just gang related deaths, it's also the cause of drugs an numerous crimes that cause death and suffering.

No, capitalism and drugs being illegal, is the source of much of the troubles tied to the War on Drugs. Make it legal and regulated, and you cut the legs out from under any gang involved in that drug's activity. Also tying back into institutionalized racism, when joining a gang is your best and most reasonable option for gaining wealth and comfort, it kind of hard to blame people who make that choice. When the system is broken, it's hard to blame the individual cogs in the machine. Once you take away a person's educational prospects and their political voice (both of which can be removed with a single drug possession charge as a teenager for having some weed), what are your options? Can't go to school, can't vote.


(05-04-2015 10:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And yet it appears (from the outside, which is where I am) that the black community tolerate this behavior while causing a stink about police corruption.

Lack of protests does not equate tacit approval. If middle America knew, truly knew, just how bad Wall Street and the 0.01 percent were fucking us all over, the Occupy Movement would have been a whole hell of a lot more than just some media-maligned college hipsters; we'd all be marching with torches and pitchforks.


(05-04-2015 10:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Like I said when this all started, this isn't about police corruption (well it is in part), it's about "rich" white and "poor" black people and the tension between these two groups. The police corruption is just a catalyst/excuse.

I got work, I'll post more later.

Indeed, wealth disparity is a huge contributing factor. However that doesn't adequately address how wealth disparity can be institutionalized, and how that often goes hand in hand with racism.

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06-04-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
Woah I didn't say that gang violence excused cops killing people. Wow don't know how that's all anyone got out of my point.
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06-04-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
(05-04-2015 10:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The gangs don't excuse the corruption in the Police department, but that corruption doesn't excuse gangs either.
While I agree that police are in a position to protect and serve and abusing that position is terrible and shit, I can see the point of the OP that the amount of effort going into protesting Police corruption, while justified and good and should happen, doesn't happen (or at least isn't reported on as widely if it does) when it comes to a much larger issue that is gang violence. Gang violence is more than just gang related deaths, it's also the cause of drugs an numerous crimes that cause death and suffering. And yet it appears (from the outside, which is where I am) that the black community tolerate this behavior while causing a stink about police corruption.

Like I said when this all started, this isn't about police corruption (well it is in part), it's about "rich" white and "poor" black people and the tension between these two groups. The police corruption is just a catalyst/excuse.

I got work, I'll post more later.

Thank you I'm glad someone got that I wasn't excusing cops from killing just making the point that the black community tolerates the ever so familiar drug and gang related killings.
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06-04-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
(06-04-2015 12:34 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Woah I didn't say that gang violence excused cops killing people. Wow don't know how that's all anyone got out of my point.
Looks like they missed the point alright. I agree with what you said in your opening post,the thing is, if I said the same thing in a conversation I'd be called a racist.

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06-04-2015, 07:28 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
(06-04-2015 05:37 PM)Marozz Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 12:34 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Woah I didn't say that gang violence excused cops killing people. Wow don't know how that's all anyone got out of my point.
Looks like they missed the point alright. I agree with what you said in your opening post,the thing is, if I said the same thing in a conversation I'd be called a racist.

And that's part of the problem. Stupidity is stupidity and is not limited to race. I have no problem with my friends of other ethnicity or hell anyone for that matter pointing out a problem that exist in my race, age group, or any other group I'm apart of. I see it as constructive criticism and I build upon it. One of the reasons I started this was to get people of all color to talk about it. It wasn't limited towards just the black users here. I can't speak for everyone on the taking issue on people speaking on it but to me I see no problem with it.
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06-04-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
(05-04-2015 10:37 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(05-04-2015 10:30 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  One of the few things the United States still holds the world wide No.1 spot on is incarcerating it's own citizens, so there is that...

And hypocrisy these are things we know. But still i heard japan had some bad cops

Go watch/read a doco-movie-thing-book called Freakanomics.
It has a bit about Japanese police/corruption. I don't know how valid it is for today but it's interesting none the less (whole thing is actually).

Quote:Civil disobedience, peaceful assembly, and protests are tools used to show displeasure and petition for changes or reform. The illegal actives that gangs can engage in are already illegal. Presumably they should be handled by the police, when they're not busy harassing law-abiding citizens.

They're protesting illegal activities (harassment, corruption etc..), how is that any different to protesting gangs? They're not protesting the actions they're protesting so something can be done to stop the harassment/corruption/whatever etc..

I don't see how putting pressure on the government/local authorities to do something more about gang violence is any different to what they're doing now in relation to cop corruption.

Quote:No, capitalism and drugs being illegal, is the source of much of the troubles tied to the War on Drugs.

And if drugs were legal they would be shaking down small businesses for "protection" or doing fraud or stealing cars or whatever. Drugs are fuel to the problem but they're not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is poverty, that's why gangs are a thing. You don't see some cracker white boy from the Hills standing on a corner slinging dope and ganging out of car windows with machine pistols.

Quote:Make it legal and regulated, and you cut the legs out from under any gang involved in that drug's activity.

Also, gangs have a hold on whole communities. They can pressure people to buy. They could also get cheaper product (depending on location I guess) due to no taxes/store costs/etc... so the problem doesn't just vanish overnight.

Quote:Also tying back into institutionalized racism, when joining a gang is your best and most reasonable option for gaining wealth and comfort, it kind of hard to blame people who make that choice.

It's entirely possible to blame those people. People need to be held responsible for their actions, I think it's dangerous to say "oh, they had no other option we'll let it go this time".

They join because they're under pressure or their brother/sister/friends are in the gang or whatever. But this comes back to the community allowing this sort of pressure and behavior and tolerating it. This is exactly what the black community (or any community that has a gang problem) should be fighting against.

Quote: Once you take away a person's educational prospects and their political voice (both of which can be removed with a single drug possession charge as a teenager for having some weed), what are your options? Can't go to school, can't vote.

I agree the system is broken. That's what I'm saying, the black community should protest that because it's a much bigger issue than some police harassment (which I accept is an issue, just not as big). But they don't. They're stuck in their ways and so they stay down.

Quote:Lack of protests does not equate tacit approval. If middle America knew, truly knew, just how bad Wall Street and the 0.01 percent were fucking us all over, the Occupy Movement would have been a whole hell of a lot more than just some media-maligned college hipsters; we'd all be marching with torches and pitchforks.

No we wouldn't. The middle class has it good, they're not about to rock the boat and risk everything. Too much effort.
The occupy movement failed because the homeless jumped on the bandwagon and tried to make it about them. Nobody gives a shit about homeless people and so the movement died. It was stupid anyway.
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06-04-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
Quote:Not all police officers or precincts are like this,


I agree with you completely on that, EvKills....but.

And here's the but.

Too many of the ones who would not deliberately shoot an unarmed civilian will stand there and defend the ones who do. THAT is the problem with the cops and what makes them most like a gang.

And, can a good cop really be that "good" if he has blinders on to law violations by fellow cops?

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06-04-2015, 08:34 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
(06-04-2015 08:30 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Not all police officers or precincts are like this,


I agree with you completely on that, EvKills....but.

And here's the but.

Too many of the ones who would not deliberately shoot an unarmed civilian will stand there and defend the ones who do. THAT is the problem with the cops and what makes them most like a gang.

And, can a good cop really be that "good" if he has blinders on to law violations by fellow cops?

100% agree. They're not all assholes, but their self-preserving, thin blue line bullshit that shields them from public oversight and reprisal is bullshit; and being complicit with this system makes you part of the problem.

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06-04-2015, 10:22 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 10:25 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
(06-04-2015 08:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Civil disobedience, peaceful assembly, and protests are tools used to show displeasure and petition for changes or reform. The illegal actives that gangs can engage in are already illegal. Presumably they should be handled by the police, when they're not busy harassing law-abiding citizens.
They're protesting illegal activities (harassment, corruption etc..), how is that any different to protesting gangs? They're not protesting the actions they're protesting so something can be done to stop the harassment/corruption/whatever etc..

I don't see how putting pressure on the government/local authorities to do something more about gang violence is any different to what they're doing now in relation to cop corruption.


Simple. Because the cops are utterly failing to police themselves. If the proper checks where in place and police overreach and mistakes were properly accounted for instead of being brushed under the rug and 'harrumphed', protests would not be needed. The protests are in response to the police being unable to police themselves, when those who supposedly enforce the law are immune from it; it is this failure and hypocrisy that fires up the protesters. There is no one advocating in favor of gang violence, but the citizens who expect their police officers to 'protect and serve' are not happy with their inability to deliver on that oath.



(06-04-2015 08:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:No, capitalism and drugs being illegal, is the source of much of the troubles tied to the War on Drugs.
And if drugs were legal they would be shaking down small businesses for "protection" or doing fraud or stealing cars or whatever. Drugs are fuel to the problem but they're not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is poverty, that's why gangs are a thing. You don't see some cracker white boy from the Hills standing on a corner slinging dope and ganging out of car windows with machine pistols.


No, that's because white drug dealers use the internet and Fed-Ex. Yes, poverty is a problem, but gang violence is not limited to minority communities. However they have greater hold and power within their communities precisely because the minority communities suffer greater marginalization from society at large.



(06-04-2015 08:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Make it legal and regulated, and you cut the legs out from under any gang involved in that drug's activity.
Also, gangs have a hold on whole communities. They can pressure people to buy. They could also get cheaper product (depending on location I guess) due to no taxes/store costs/etc... so the problem doesn't just vanish overnight.


You're kidding, right? Once you make it legal and you can produce it locally, you can undercut gang prices because the product doesn't need to travel through 30+ different hands (each raising the price) on it's way across south and central America. Even with taxes and regulations, the legal stuff would be way cheaper.



(06-04-2015 08:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Also tying back into institutionalized racism, when joining a gang is your best and most reasonable option for gaining wealth and comfort, it kind of hard to blame people who make that choice.
It's entirely possible to blame those people. People need to be held responsible for their actions, I think it's dangerous to say "oh, they had no other option we'll let it go this time".

They join because they're under pressure or their brother/sister/friends are in the gang or whatever. But this comes back to the community allowing this sort of pressure and behavior and tolerating it. This is exactly what the black community (or any community that has a gang problem) should be fighting against.


When society as a whole fails to make other options more appealing? When they're marginalized, criminalized, and victimized by a system, is it any wonder that they turn in on themselves? The gang offers community, family, and support; things that they are not getting from the community or system at large. If you desire those things, and being in a gang is the best option you have for fulfilling those needs, you're going to join a gang; and no amount of tut-tut from the white politicians, police, and community who have marginalized you are going to change your mind.



(06-04-2015 08:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:
Once you take away a person's educational prospects and their political voice (both of which can be removed with a single drug possession charge as a teenager for having some weed), what are your options? Can't go to school, can't vote.
I agree the system is broken. That's what I'm saying, the black community should protest that because it's a much bigger issue than some police harassment (which I accept is an issue, just not as big). But they don't. They're stuck in their ways and so they stay down.


Chalk it up to human psychology. The lack of education and terrible economic prospects is a slow death that helps keep them down as a community. Police brutality is sudden, violent, and personal; giving them martyrs and symbols to rally around.

Doesn't make the police brutality any less brutal, doesn't make the injustice any more just.



(06-04-2015 08:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Lack of protests does not equate tacit approval. If middle America knew, truly knew, just how bad Wall Street and the 0.01 percent were fucking us all over, the Occupy Movement would have been a whole hell of a lot more than just some media-maligned college hipsters; we'd all be marching with torches and pitchforks.
No we wouldn't. The middle class has it good, they're not about to rock the boat and risk everything. Too much effort.


Except that is a lie. Effective wages have stagnated since the 70's, while personal credit and debt has sky-rocketed. Middle America burdens itself with debt to afford the improving quality of life they want, an improvement that previous generations were able to pay for up front. Eventually it will be too much, and debt will not be able to keep up the facade of progress.



(06-04-2015 08:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The occupy movement failed because the homeless jumped on the bandwagon and tried to make it about them. Nobody gives a shit about homeless people and so the movement died. It was stupid anyway.


Dude, you really don't know. No

The Occupy movement is the international branch of the Occupy Wall Street movement that protests against social and economic inequality around the world, its primary goal being to make the economic and political relations in all societies less vertically hierarchical and more flatly distributed.




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06-04-2015, 10:43 PM
RE: The Victmhood within the Black Community
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