The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
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29-12-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(29-12-2015 06:11 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Gods don't exist. So why bother watching debates about them? They are all the same.

There's no evidence. End of story.

Watch a movie or something. Go outside or pat the dog. Anything. Watching some idiot like Sye is beneath and unworthy of a rationalist IMO.
I take your point and in fact I take your advice and don't watch these things because they are really boring. But I do debate on fora like this and the frustration is that despite having logic and reason on our side we don't change many minds and then in a video like this with relatively "professional" debaters you'd think you'd get some instruction in how to do it right or some real inspiration. But it just ends up in another draw.

The only consolation is that it's the same for theists, only slightly more so. Worldwide the number of theists leaving theism is way more than the traffic in the other direction, much as theists would like to think otherwise.

Sometimes I feel like dropping the pastime of eating theists for lunch and having them think nothing has happened, but I do it for the lurkers. There was a time when I was trying to think my way out of the theist straightjacket and I try to make points that I would have appreciated hearing when I was in that state. I'm convinced that most of the people who are really helped by us hashing this stuff out are the ones who mostly don't speak up or engage. I know I was such a lurker at one time, afraid to make my doubt and unbelief real by speaking of them.

I do know a couple people on another forum who used to come in and argue the fundamentalist case and one day couldn't take it any more and caved to the dark side or at least became agnostic theists. But they're pretty rare. Not everyone who leaves theism wants to continue to engage in debate, they would rather forget they were ever that deluded.
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29-12-2015, 07:43 PM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(29-12-2015 01:40 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Sye's tactics.

Atheist: (Insert Question)

Sye: I don't answer questions of Atheists.

Theist: (Insert Question)

Sye: Refer to scripture.

He's completely intellectually dishonest. The fucked up part is he can't or refuses to see it.

He's useless to debate because he refuses to truly engage. He hides behind a sheild of belief that only his interpretation is correct. That's why he hides behind his absolute truths, and dismisses the subjective truth.

He's arrogance makes me crazy...

If I were a monkey I'd throw shit at him.

Wait a minute... Consider


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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30-12-2015, 03:25 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(29-12-2015 12:06 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  And as evidence to this I searched for Jeff Durbin and got tons of videos of him debating other atheists. I don't know how long Jeff has been at this, but he seems to have been lucky so far since the only videos of him interacting with opposing views has him seemingly pwning it.
Lucky? or is it because he is an intelligent and skilled debater?
I don't agree with him, but from what I have seem of him in the video I am impressed.

(29-12-2015 12:06 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  But the most frustrating part of this debate, and probably why Branch of Hope claims this to be the "Best Debate... Ever", is the atheist table.
They don't seem prepared to debate. They got flustered and allowed themselves to get tangled up in having to defend the questions asked by the opposition rather than focussing on their own points. They didn't play their own game, they let the opposition dictate the game.

(29-12-2015 12:06 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  The atheists here let themselves get backed into a corner. Because it seemed evident to me that the Christians came prepared. They came with a strategy. And the strategy was simply: steamroll the atheists by always being the one asking the questions.
They made sure the discussion focused on their own points rather than the points made by the atheists.
(29-12-2015 12:06 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  And when the atheists were able to ask the questions, the Christians barely answered and quickly turned back to being the questioners.
Yep, the Christians controlled the focus of the discussion, that's why they won.

(29-12-2015 12:06 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  And of course, what was the issue that the atheists let themselves get most backed into the corner with? Morality. MORALITY! "Eating babies" came up like 6 or 7 times throughout the entire 2 videos. Facepalm Eating fucking babies!
It's a hard topic for atheists to defend.
When you say that there is no objective morality but insist that morality is subjective then you are claiming that your moral beliefs are merely your own subjective personal opinions. Which doesn't bode well if you try to suggest that others ought to abide by your own personal opinions.

Moral language is not well defined. It assumes that people are aligned, which we are not, so we end up meaning different things, hence we talk past each other and miscommunicate. It would take substantial ground work to define the terms, morality, right, wrong, moral obligation etc in order to move forward in an unambiguous discussion. This ground work would come across as tedious, trite and superfluous, because most people think they know what right or wrong means, they think it is self evident, they think it needs no explanation. So if an atheist answers the question "is it wrong to eat babies?" with anything other than "Yes it is wrong" then the atheist ends up looking like a dick. So they are already backed into a corner. They can't say "well sometimes it is OK to eat babies" and they can't say "Well nothing is really right or wrong" (This is my position by the way, but stating that to the common folk who aren't interested in a philosophical "what does it really mean to say something is wrong" just makes yourself out to be avoiding the question).
I think perhaps we ought to think of theists as small children just following Dad's (god) orders without really understanding the why.
"We don't eat babies because god said it is bad"
"Yeah, but why is it bad?"

Jeff Durbin's position is "because humans are made in god's image and god has ultimate, infinite value and hence humans inherit value.

We ought to ask "why is it that us human's ought to put value on the god creature?", "Why does this creature come first and then us by association to the god creature?".

Just asserting that "god" is ultimate value, doesn't cut it.

As humans we do place some value on other humans because we live in societies of humans. We are social animals and need to make concessions to co-exist.
But this comes across as selfish. What the audience wants us to say is that it is self evident that human life is special, and ought to be valued. But how to we root this value other than either self interest or personal opinion?
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30-12-2015, 03:41 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(29-12-2015 06:27 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 06:11 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Gods don't exist. So why bother watching debates about them? They are all the same.

There's no evidence. End of story.

Watch a movie or something. Go outside or pat the dog. Anything. Watching some idiot like Sye is beneath and unworthy of a rationalist IMO.
I take your point and in fact I take your advice and don't watch these things because they are really boring. But I do debate on fora like this and the frustration is that despite having logic and reason on our side we don't change many minds and then in a video like this with relatively "professional" debaters you'd think you'd get some instruction in how to do it right or some real inspiration. But it just ends up in another draw.

The only consolation is that it's the same for theists, only slightly more so. Worldwide the number of theists leaving theism is way more than the traffic in the other direction, much as theists would like to think otherwise.

Sometimes I feel like dropping the pastime of eating theists for lunch and having them think nothing has happened, but I do it for the lurkers. There was a time when I was trying to think my way out of the theist straightjacket and I try to make points that I would have appreciated hearing when I was in that state. I'm convinced that most of the people who are really helped by us hashing this stuff out are the ones who mostly don't speak up or engage. I know I was such a lurker at one time, afraid to make my doubt and unbelief real by speaking of them.

I do know a couple people on another forum who used to come in and argue the fundamentalist case and one day couldn't take it any more and caved to the dark side or at least became agnostic theists. But they're pretty rare. Not everyone who leaves theism wants to continue to engage in debate, they would rather forget they were ever that deluded.

Yeah mate I get it. I debated theists for many years. I probably started around age 16 or 17. Cannot be sure. When I had time I administered a site dedicated to the KJV 1611. I had some success. Even managed to turn two Catholic priests into atheists. Now I don't really bother. Life is too short and Voltaire was right about arguing. It's mostly a waste of time.

If there is someone like a physicist debating I'll likely watch it because I am quite uneducated and chances are I'll learn something. Or Hitchens. Mainly because he was so eloquent and I can enjoy his language. He spoke as if writing prose.

But an idiot like William Lane Craig or Sye is just too pathetic. Sadly Hitchens is of course dead. But I still have access to his work. Hitch 22 is full of gorgeous language. One of those books where I can read a sentence a few times. Like good music.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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30-12-2015, 04:10 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(29-12-2015 06:11 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Gods don't exist. So why bother watching debates about them? They are all the same.

There's no evidence. End of story.

Watch a movie or something. Go outside or pat the dog. Anything. Watching some idiot like Sye is beneath and unworthy of a rationalist IMO.
I am quite sure now that no Gods exist or at least Gods that give a shit about us, but I've still got that nagging question about creation.
Do you think there may be a God that created everything but really does not care about the planet or it's inhabitants?
Or do you think it all happened by chance?
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30-12-2015, 05:35 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(30-12-2015 04:10 AM)Thewonderer Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 06:11 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Gods don't exist. So why bother watching debates about them? They are all the same.

There's no evidence. End of story.

Watch a movie or something. Go outside or pat the dog. Anything. Watching some idiot like Sye is beneath and unworthy of a rationalist IMO.
I am quite sure now that no Gods exist or at least Gods that give a shit about us, but I've still got that nagging question about creation.
Do you think there may be a God that created everything but really does not care about the planet or it's inhabitants?
Or do you think it all happened by chance?

All I think is that gods are fictional characters created by creative humans. I like the ones in Homer the best.

As far as the universe being created and how it happened? I am honest with myself. I am not smart enough to really have an opinion and would refer anyone to physicists or those more highly schooled than I. I don't think we little humans have quite got our heads around it yet, but we are making good strides in the right direction.

I also do not think that we are owed an explanation. Just because we are people doesn't make us special. For example two days ago my brother's dog died. Yesterday a mate of mine died. We're just animals. Me, as many know I have cancer. I had a pet rat who died of cancer. Where's the difference. I think ants may be one of the most successful animals on the planet. Then there is the tiny creature that can even survive for periods in outer space and was here before the dinosaurs.

We just don't know. And that is fine.

I reckon we should all concentrate on being good people. Loving our families and friends. Not bothering about how others live their lives, depending on whether or not they are criminals. Smile

People insert "because god did it" when they don't understand. To me that is kind of greedy. As if we should be allowed to know. Anyway I doubt the question will be fully answered in our lifetimes. So let's just enjoy this wonderful thing called life and forget these gods created by ancient humans who thought the earth was at the centre of the universe and the stars were pinpricks in the firmament.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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30-12-2015, 05:43 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(30-12-2015 04:10 AM)Thewonderer Wrote:  I am quite sure now that no Gods exist or at least Gods that give a shit about us, but I've still got that nagging question about creation.
Do you think there may be a God that created everything but really does not care about the planet or it's inhabitants?
Or do you think it all happened by chance?

Well, use of the word 'creation' is misleading, as we don't know if that term is even applicable. We can trace our own observable universe back through the big bang, but that's it; everything beyond that is theoretical, not yet demonstrable.

Was there something before it? Did everything actually have a single start point, or do we exist along an infinite continuum? We don't know enough to say for sure, only that we know enough to say that describing any of it as 'creation' is presumptuous and built upon unfounded assumptions.

I think that we have no evidence in support of the super-natural, let alone the divine, let alone the existence of a specific pan dimensional, invisible, emotionally stunted space wizard with an unhealthy obsession with what we do when we're naked. So assuming the existence of such, let alone attributing it a will or agency, is a huge fallacy that does nothing but add more layers of unanswerable questions.

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30-12-2015, 05:48 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(29-12-2015 07:43 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  If I were a monkey I'd throw shit at him.

Wait a minute... Consider

Aron Ra makes a compelling argument that humans are still monkeys, in the same way we're still vertebrate chordates.

So by all means, throw poo at the stupid fucker. Thumbsup

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30-12-2015, 06:25 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(30-12-2015 04:10 AM)Thewonderer Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 06:11 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Gods don't exist. So why bother watching debates about them? They are all the same.

There's no evidence. End of story.

Watch a movie or something. Go outside or pat the dog. Anything. Watching some idiot like Sye is beneath and unworthy of a rationalist IMO.
I am quite sure now that no Gods exist or at least Gods that give a shit about us, but I've still got that nagging question about creation.
Do you think there may be a God that created everything but really does not care about the planet or it's inhabitants?
Or do you think it all happened by chance?

That is the basic question often called the watchmaker theory. A watch is so wonderfully made it is evident that someone made it, and the agent that made the watch is so wonderfully made that something must have made him, but follow that logic chain, just one more step. If man is so wonderfully made that someone had to have made him then that maker too is so wonderfully made that someone had to have made him. I am using he phraseology that I learned when I was expected to defend creationism. But I out grew it!
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30-12-2015, 06:30 AM
RE: The WORST Debate Between Christians and Atheists Ever
(30-12-2015 04:10 AM)Thewonderer Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 06:11 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Gods don't exist. So why bother watching debates about them? They are all the same.

There's no evidence. End of story.

Watch a movie or something. Go outside or pat the dog. Anything. Watching some idiot like Sye is beneath and unworthy of a rationalist IMO.
I am quite sure now that no Gods exist or at least Gods that give a shit about us, but I've still got that nagging question about creation.
Do you think there may be a God that created everything but really does not care about the planet or it's inhabitants?
Or do you think it all happened by chance?

If it was a disinterested deist type god, then it's functionally equivalent to a non-existent god, it's an important point that many of us make. If some type of creator god does exist, then what are it's characteristics? If the theist can't rely on their book to tell us, then their religion is useless.

It really is impossible for the individual to truly evaluate all religions, but it is very possible that all of them are wrong and not very likely any are right.

If there was an extremely powerful entity driving a god concept encapsulated in some holy book, there would be very little debate about it being real. It would be like the Force, we could invoke it at will to produce demonstrable effects.

But all we ever get are post hoc evidences that require you to believe to accept it as evidence, while their deity remains suspiciously invisible.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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