The Worst Religion is Islam?
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23-06-2014, 08:34 AM
The Worst Religion is Islam?
Although I have been an Atheist for about 15 years now, I just recently read my first 'Atheist' book, God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. I didn't enjoy the read as much as some folks, but it did get me more interested in researching Islam, and I have. The Islamic states are fucking disgusting. It offends every fiber of my being and I really do hate the evil men in positions of authority in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, and even Turkey. But is Islam the cause, or the vehicle by which this sick power is wielded? If Muhammad had never lived, would we the the same or similar problems, or is he to blame? What about Paul of Tarsus/Saul in Christianity? Who or what is to blame?

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23-06-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 08:34 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Although I have been an Atheist for about 15 years now, I just recently read my first 'Atheist' book, God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. I didn't enjoy the read as much as some folks, but it did get me more interested in researching Islam, and I have. The Islamic states are fucking disgusting. It offends every fiber of my being and I really do hate the evil men in positions of authority in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, and even Turkey. But is Islam the cause, or the vehicle by which this sick power is wielded? If Muhammad had never lived, would we the the same or similar problems, or is he to blame? What about Paul of Tarsus/Saul in Christianity? Who or what is to blame?

Ultimately, human beings are responsible. It is our overall "acceptance" of irrationality and irrational behavior ... and by that I mean, relying on faith rather than reason to resolve real life issues. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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23-06-2014, 08:46 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 08:34 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Although I have been an Atheist for about 15 years now, I just recently read my first 'Atheist' book, God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. I didn't enjoy the read as much as some folks, but it did get me more interested in researching Islam, and I have. The Islamic states are fucking disgusting. It offends every fiber of my being and I really do hate the evil men in positions of authority in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, and even Turkey. But is Islam the cause, or the vehicle by which this sick power is wielded? If Muhammad had never lived, would we the the same or similar problems, or is he to blame? What about Paul of Tarsus/Saul in Christianity? Who or what is to blame?

Poverty and Tribal conditions set the scene as much or more than Islam. Considering that the polytheistic roots of Islam (note they had no relation to the Babylonian or Palestinian pantheons) were as patriarchal as Islam is leads one to suppose had Muhammad never lived the areas would be in roughly the same state they are now.

Obligatory picture of Muhammad
[Image: White+Muhammad.jpg]

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-06-2014, 09:06 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
Any religion can be abused or misdirected for personal gain. And they frequently are.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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23-06-2014, 09:25 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 09:06 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  Any religion can be abused or misdirected for personal gain. And they frequently are.

Of course, but is Islam designed to install it's sickness better than others, or are the people (do to factors outside of religion) , chiefly men, more to blame?

I think Rev hit on what I was talking about more, but it only brings up more questions for me. The Gauls, The Franks, etc were all very much 'tribal' during the early Middle Ages, around the birth of Islam. Europe moved on, these other folks did not...and they had much better mathematicians and scientists at the time. Consider

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23-06-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 09:25 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 09:06 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  Any religion can be abused or misdirected for personal gain. And they frequently are.

Of course, but is Islam designed to install it's sickness better than others, or are the people (do to factors outside of religion) , chiefly men, more to blame?

I think Rev hit on what I was talking about more, but it only brings up more questions for me. The Gauls, The Franks, etc were all very much 'tribal' during the early Middle Ages, around the birth of Islam. Europe moved on, these other folks did not...and they had much better mathematicians and scientists at the time. Consider

I think now we are hitting on the rise of Nationalism, which is the main difference between Europe and the Islamic areas. For the most part (belgians being the biggest exception) most europeans consider themselves French or English or Italian rather than whatever original tribe they would have descended from. Islamic countries however are not like that, mostly because they are all only 80 years old or so. This of course, like all things, we can blame on the British and their handling of the break-up of the Ottoman empire. The arbitrary divisions seem almost intent on causing longstanding feuds and hostilities by splitting tribes in half across borders and grouping them with historical rivals.

To pull a good example from today's headlines the Kurds were split among 4 countries Iraq,Turkey,Iran, and Syria. They were a minority in each of these countries because of this and have been in open rebellion in some (turkey mostly) for years because of it. Then there is the fact that each of these new countries were handed to a Monarch to do as they pleased and either the countries rebelled and came under the control of a strongman dictator or are still Autocracies rules by a single family.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-06-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
Judaism, if properly interpreted, could be every bit as bad, if not worse.

Christianity properly interpreted probably looks a lot like what Pope Francis has going on. It could be easily twisted, however, to be just as bad as Islam.

That all being said Islam is easily the worst today and perhaps the worst of all time. I can't remember a religion that so thoroughly dominates woman and undermines the arts, science, and education. The troubling thing is I think the radicals have got it right, meaning they are properly interpreting what their holy book says. The folly of relying on a nearly two thousand year old text written by backwards and illiterate peoples as your political, cultural, and moral compass Facepalm .

It should be noted that at other times in history Islamic states where some of the most inclusive and free places in the world. Baghdad in 900 CE was the arguably the cultural and intellectual capital of the world. Then religious fanatics seized control giving us the Islam we know and love today :/. The ottomans, a later period Islamic state, was not so bad, but when they collapsed the religious zealots took over again.

The troubling thing is Islamic fundamentalism appears to be spreading to places that it had never been before. Pakistan used to be a much more progressive state up until the last ten years. Turkey and Egypt are the worst off they have ever been. Another sobering reminder that progressive is not certain. Any where in the world, at any time, a society can return to regressive practices. Islam just happens to be particularly nasty instance of that.
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23-06-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 09:41 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 09:25 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Of course, but is Islam designed to install it's sickness better than others, or are the people (do to factors outside of religion) , chiefly men, more to blame?

I think Rev hit on what I was talking about more, but it only brings up more questions for me. The Gauls, The Franks, etc were all very much 'tribal' during the early Middle Ages, around the birth of Islam. Europe moved on, these other folks did not...and they had much better mathematicians and scientists at the time. Consider

I think now we are hitting on the rise of Nationalism, which is the main difference between Europe and the Islamic areas. For the most part (belgians being the biggest exception) most europeans consider themselves French or English or Italian rather than whatever original tribe they would have descended from. Islamic countries however are not like that, mostly because they are all only 80 years old or so. This of course, like all things, we can blame on the British and their handling of the break-up of the Ottoman empire. The arbitrary divisions seem almost intent on causing longstanding feuds and hostilities by splitting tribes in half across borders and grouping them with historical rivals.

To pull a good example from today's headlines the Kurds were split among 4 countries Iraq,Turkey,Iran, and Syria. They were a minority in each of these countries because of this and have been in open rebellion in some (turkey mostly) for years because of it. Then there is the fact that each of these new countries were handed to a Monarch to do as they pleased and either the countries rebelled and came under the control of a strongman dictator or are still Autocracies rules by a single family.

Okay, okay, okay, now we are getting too far removed from the key element. Next we'll be discussing the why's of the why's of the why's. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's extremely difficult to have that conversation in the forum format. But I cannot resist mentioning the Germans who didn't unify until the late 19th century and nearly broke up again during the Wiemar Republic. Tongue

So, let's cut closer to the issue. Is there something of the setup, or texts, or rituals, etc. of Islam which causes it to be so...appaling. Christians used to do the same type of bullshit, but generally don't anymore. Why?

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23-06-2014, 10:10 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2014 10:13 AM by DLJ.)
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 09:52 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  ...
Christians used to do the same type of bullshit, but generally don't anymore. Why?

The printing press, The Renaissance, The Enlightenment, the spread of ideas and knowledge ... you know this shit.

And I'm a Celtic Jew.

Got a problem with that?

Dodgy

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23-06-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
I don't think you can point to any single individual or group as the cause of Islam's reputation.

Right or wrong, religion is and always has been a major part of human civilization. Unfortunately, with it has come (with very few exceptions) massive human suffering.

Most, if not all religions have a tendency towards violence, oppression of women, oppression of gays, cruelty and excessive punishment for relatively minor misdemeanors... And perhaps most disturbing of all, the psychological, sexual and physical abuse of children.

While Christianity may have mellowed to a certain degree in the past two or three centuries... Given free reign, I don't doubt it would slip back into its old habits, and behave in much the same manner as Islam does today.

You only have to read about Europe in the middle ages to understand the horror that Christianity inflicted upon people.

Islam is a modern example of a religion having dominance over every aspect of people's lives.

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