The Worst Religion is Islam?
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23-06-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 11:11 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 11:11 AM)kim Wrote:  This is why the caged bird sings. It sings a song of freedom which it can not know it doesn't really have. Dodgy
Well, of course I agree except for the caged bird - it sings because it is lonely as heck, designed to live in a flock, and trying for all it's worth to attract others of the same kind. It is not a joyous song.

Darn right, is not a joyous song; it's depressing as fuck.

Of course, I was also using this as metaphor.

Example: The young Muslim girl who is happy as hell to wear the hijab and even the burqa. She has no idea she is even a prisoner and joyously sings the praises of her captor.

She has only been given what information is necessary to control her. To her, this information is the only world she knows and it is the only place she can ever be allowed to look to find whatever she has been taught that freedom is. The very thing she has been told provides her with freedom (Islam), is the very thing which will assure that she is not, and never will be, free.
***

Anna Wrote:One can only hope that education would change the future of my country, but the chances are not very high as long as religion is here.
I find it wonderful to note that our Anna is in no way, a caged bird. Wink

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23-06-2014, 01:04 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
It's definitely not about Islam itself.

As evidence, consider Islam in, oh, let's say the 9th century. It wasn't a case of the entire world being ignorant goatherders, and then Islam happened, and then the world left it behind. The Mulsim world was the leading light of civilization, culture, science... at least until you got as far east as China, and even then it would be hard to say who was in the lead. They left US (western civilization) behind, and it took us centuries to catch back up.

Whatever is to blame for the current state of affairs, Islam... at least Islam in general... is not it. Particular fundamentalist interpretations of Islam being popularly adhered to and pushed by theocratic autocrats, definitely. Islam in general, definitely not. That experiment's been run. Islam under certain conditions can produce a somewhat enlightened society... very enlightened, by contrast to European Christianity of the same era... even if under present conditions it produces a monstrosity. The key factor must be the conditions.
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23-06-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 01:04 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  It's definitely not about Islam itself.

As evidence, consider Islam in, oh, let's say the 9th century. It wasn't a case of the entire world being ignorant goatherders, and then Islam happened, and then the world left it behind. The Mulsim world was the leading light of civilization, culture, science... at least until you got as far east as China, and even then it would be hard to say who was in the lead. They left US (western civilization) behind, and it took us centuries to catch back up.

Whatever is to blame for the current state of affairs, Islam... at least Islam in general... is not it. Particular fundamentalist interpretations of Islam being popularly adhered to and pushed by theocratic autocrats, definitely. Islam in general, definitely not. That experiment's been run. Islam under certain conditions can produce a somewhat enlightened society... very enlightened, by contrast to European Christianity of the same era... even if under present conditions it produces a monstrosity. The key factor must be the conditions.

Indeed.

Much of the early wealth of the centralised Islamic states (the incarnations of the caliphates, the later egyptians and ottomans) was built on their role in global trade (as the transit hub between east and west). Once they were bypassed, they had trouble finding a new foundation for economic growth.

That middle belt of afro-eurasia is fairly resource-poor; there aren't many natural waterways, and there aren't the supplies of coal and ore to take the same path America and north-western Europe did (three most powerful countries in 1900: UK, USA, Germany. world's largest deposits of high-quality coal and iron ore: UK, USA, Germany).

The oil doesn't even help that much (for those few who have it!). You can't build a diversified economy on a single resource. Plus, it wasn't indigenously controlled until the 1950s and 1960s. But once it was, it ended up locked down by the local elites, and then we get the kleptoparasite oligarchies of the Gulf states - a tiny nobility among the world's richest, a small citizen body living on their largesse, built on the bloody backs of huge numbers of disenfranchised and repressed foreigners.

That's the economic-determinism analysis; insufficient, as with any such (reductive) geopolitical look, but an important part of any synthesis.

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23-06-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 01:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:04 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  It's definitely not about Islam itself.

As evidence, consider Islam in, oh, let's say the 9th century. It wasn't a case of the entire world being ignorant goatherders, and then Islam happened, and then the world left it behind. The Mulsim world was the leading light of civilization, culture, science... at least until you got as far east as China, and even then it would be hard to say who was in the lead. They left US (western civilization) behind, and it took us centuries to catch back up.

Whatever is to blame for the current state of affairs, Islam... at least Islam in general... is not it. Particular fundamentalist interpretations of Islam being popularly adhered to and pushed by theocratic autocrats, definitely. Islam in general, definitely not. That experiment's been run. Islam under certain conditions can produce a somewhat enlightened society... very enlightened, by contrast to European Christianity of the same era... even if under present conditions it produces a monstrosity. The key factor must be the conditions.

Indeed.

Much of the early wealth of the centralised Islamic states (the incarnations of the caliphates, the later egyptians and ottomans) was built on their role in global trade (as the transit hub between east and west). Once they were bypassed, they had trouble finding a new foundation for economic growth.

That middle belt of afro-eurasia is fairly resource-poor; there aren't many natural waterways, and there aren't the supplies of coal and ore to take the same path America and north-western Europe did (three most powerful countries in 1900: UK, USA, Germany. world's largest deposits of high-quality coal and iron ore: UK, USA, Germany).

The oil doesn't even help that much (for those few who have it!). You can't build a diversified economy on a single resource. Plus, it wasn't indigenously controlled until the 1950s and 1960s. But once it was, it ended up locked down by the local elites, and then we get the kleptoparasite oligarchies of the Gulf states - a tiny nobility among the world's richest, a small citizen body living on their largesse, built on the bloody backs of huge numbers of disenfranchised and repressed foreigners.

That's the economic-determinism analysis; insufficient, as with any such (reductive) geopolitical look, but an important part of any synthesis.

I think we are falling into the trap of thinking Islam=Arabic peninsula and are discounting the other areas Indonesia is the largest Islamic country by population IIRC and there are also the central african Islamic countries. Funnily enough Turkey is probably the most democratic of any majority Muslim nation and was mentioned by the op as repressive. Does following Islam predispose one to an authoritarian form of government? This may be the case as we have seen country after country radicalised. It is entirely possible that there is no liberal Islamic government possible. Once you add government control to this religion it seems to go hard right almost immediately.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-06-2014, 01:57 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 01:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed.

Much of the early wealth of the centralised Islamic states (the incarnations of the caliphates, the later egyptians and ottomans) was built on their role in global trade (as the transit hub between east and west). Once they were bypassed, they had trouble finding a new foundation for economic growth.

That middle belt of afro-eurasia is fairly resource-poor; there aren't many natural waterways, and there aren't the supplies of coal and ore to take the same path America and north-western Europe did (three most powerful countries in 1900: UK, USA, Germany. world's largest deposits of high-quality coal and iron ore: UK, USA, Germany).

The oil doesn't even help that much (for those few who have it!). You can't build a diversified economy on a single resource. Plus, it wasn't indigenously controlled until the 1950s and 1960s. But once it was, it ended up locked down by the local elites, and then we get the kleptoparasite oligarchies of the Gulf states - a tiny nobility among the world's richest, a small citizen body living on their largesse, built on the bloody backs of huge numbers of disenfranchised and repressed foreigners.

That's the economic-determinism analysis; insufficient, as with any such (reductive) geopolitical look, but an important part of any synthesis.

I think we are falling into the trap of thinking Islam=Arabic peninsula and are discounting the other areas Indonesia is the largest Islamic country by population IIRC and there are also the central african Islamic countries. Funnily enough Turkey is probably the most democratic of any majority Muslim nation and was mentioned by the op as repressive. Does following Islam predispose one to an authoritarian form of government? This may be the case as we have seen country after country radicalised. It is entirely possible that there is no liberal Islamic government possible. Once you add government control to this religion it seems to go hard right almost immediately.


I live in a Muslim republic and the people are more polite, less ideological and more open minded than your average American who wants to shove his religion or superiority down the throats of all the rest of us.

I feel much safer here than I ever did driving through American cities even though there are armed soldiers with automatic rifles walking around.

It's another myth. You are much more likely to get shot in the US just for minding your own business and getting lost in the wrong neighbourhood in many American cities than you are of getting killed even living in the middle of a big city in a place like Syria.
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23-06-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 01:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I think we are falling into the trap of thinking Islam=Arabic peninsula and are discounting the other areas Indonesia is the largest Islamic country by population IIRC and there are also the central african Islamic countries.

The whole contiguous belt from Morocco to Pakistan has a lot of the same history and situation. Indonesia is very much the outlier. A lot of that is due to the very different colonial history.

Religion in Indonesia was (and is) very syncretic and insular. Very little of the state was directly ruled a century ago, and much of it wasn't globalised even sixty-odd years ago.

(23-06-2014 01:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Funnily enough Turkey is probably the most democratic of any majority Muslim nation and was mentioned by the op as repressive.

Turkey, in the 1920s, went on a spree of secular ethnic-nationalist "nation building" that would make 19th century Europeans proud. That's what gave it genuine national infrastructure and identity, something most semi-comparable post-colonial states have had serious issues with. It was definitely to their benefit that they avoided the interbellum imperialism that so adversely affected all their neighbours.
(that nation building was, however, at the expense of minority groups, like the Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds - but all the older nation-states did equivalent things in their day; it was just slightly longer ago)

(23-06-2014 01:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Does following Islam predispose one to an authoritarian form of government? This may be the case as we have seen country after country radicalised. It is entirely possible that there is no liberal Islamic government possible. Once you add government control to this religion it seems to go hard right almost immediately.

But the historical precedent is that, at almost any time in history up to the present day, there were always Islamic states which were more liberal and tolerant than a great many of their contemporaries.

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23-06-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 01:57 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I live in a Muslim republic and the people are more polite, less ideological and more open minded than your average American who wants to shove his religion or superiority down the throats of all the rest of us.

Citation needed.
(feels are not a citation)

(23-06-2014 01:57 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I feel much safer here than I ever did driving through American cities even though there are armed soldiers with automatic rifles walking around.

It's another myth. You are much more likely to get shot in the US just for minding your own business and getting lost in the wrong neighbourhood in many American cities than you are of getting killed even living in the middle of a big city in a place like Syria.

Oh boy, anecdata. 'Cause that settles things.
(I especially like the myopic Americanism in response to a post emphasising that Muslim ≠ Arab - how's that for irony?)

Bro, do you even news? I think Syria is probably just a tad more dangerous at the moment.

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23-06-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I think we are falling into the trap of thinking Islam=Arabic peninsula and are discounting the other areas Indonesia is the largest Islamic country by population IIRC and there are also the central african Islamic countries.

The whole contiguous belt from Morocco to Pakistan has a lot of the same history and situation. Indonesia is very much the outlier. A lot of that is due to the very different colonial history.

Religion in Indonesia was (and is) very syncretic and insular. Very little of the state was directly ruled a century ago, and much of it wasn't globalised even sixty-odd years ago.

I'll grant you the sandbox without hesitation, and more I was just raising the specter of the non-arab states to highlight a maybe it is Islam point.

(23-06-2014 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Funnily enough Turkey is probably the most democratic of any majority Muslim nation and was mentioned by the op as repressive.

Turkey, in the 1920s, went on a spree of secular ethnic-nationalist "nation building" that would make 19th century Europeans proud. That's what gave it genuine national infrastructure and identity, something most semi-comparable post-colonial states have had serious issues with. It was definitely to their benefit that they avoided the interbellum imperialism that so adversely affected all their neighbours.
(that nation building was, however, at the expense of minority groups, like the Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds - but all the older nation-states did equivalent things in their day; it was just slightly longer ago)

Yeah Turkey is one of the few states in the region that is not divided into Shite and Shia, though the Kurds in the south have had a history of abuse (granted they also have a history of open rebellion), but rather a cohesive Turkish identity that is lacking anywhere else in the area. Historically Egypt is one of the few that held onto a national identity through the imperial interbellum.

(23-06-2014 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Does following Islam predispose one to an authoritarian form of government? This may be the case as we have seen country after country radicalised. It is entirely possible that there is no liberal Islamic government possible. Once you add government control to this religion it seems to go hard right almost immediately.

But the historical precedent is that, at almost any time in history up to the present day, there were always Islamic states which were more liberal and tolerant than a great many of their contemporaries.

This is true, however those states would still be among the most repressive today, ironically less repressive than their descendant states are. Islamic states have yet to undergo an enlightenment or a reformation. Thus Beheading and stoning is still a thing. Democratic republics are difficult to get off the ground, they can easily turn into strong arm dictatorships when populations value security over freedom. Given the volatile history (recent) in the region it is understandable that people would choose a repressive but strong central government to the chaos that has plagued Syria and is threatening to engulf southern Iraq in flames.

As to DeltaBravo, the adults are speaking go back to your conspiracy threads and wack off to Ralph Ellis.

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23-06-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
(23-06-2014 02:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:57 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I live in a Muslim republic and the people are more polite, less ideological and more open minded than your average American who wants to shove his religion or superiority down the throats of all the rest of us.

Citation needed.
(feels are not a citation)

(23-06-2014 01:57 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I feel much safer here than I ever did driving through American cities even though there are armed soldiers with automatic rifles walking around.

It's another myth. You are much more likely to get shot in the US just for minding your own business and getting lost in the wrong neighbourhood in many American cities than you are of getting killed even living in the middle of a big city in a place like Syria.

Oh boy, anecdata. 'Cause that settles things.
(I especially like the myopic Americanism in response to a post emphasising that Muslim ≠ Arab - how's that for irony?)

Bro, do you even news? I think Syria is probably just a tad more dangerous at the moment.

Yes, I live about 70 miles from Syria and while there is a "war" going on there it is mainly made up of untrained young men with a few mortars which they shoot into a nearby deserted village across a "front line" and then run off.

Which makes most Syrian towns less dangerous than an elementary school in the US. Sad but true.
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23-06-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: The Worst Religion is Islam?
People invented religion in order to bend the laws of the world to what they want.
People who agree with that religion use it to justify their actions.

People are responsible for what they do and the Islamic people just happen to be the worst of them all in terms of violent nature and ignorance.


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