The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
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10-03-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(10-03-2015 10:29 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Jewish people were ostracized and persecuted for millennia. Many made outstanding gains in culture and the sciences, etc. but had to shave their beards, assimilate and leave their ghettos (prisons) to do so...

2. This thread since its inception has been ignoring most of the Exodus story and backstory. Millions of Jews have rejoiced and celebrated Passover... for millennia. While there are some modern revisionist Hagaddahs and an emphasis on freedom for slavery for all today, not just the Israelites, Jews celebrate the deliverance from Egypt with joy and don't point fingers at God as some kind of mass murderer...

3. ...Because it is never "Divine Exceptionalism" to say a potter can smash his clay or reform it or make two pots with it, one for treasures and one for a garbage can. When you die in a hospital bed, you die, God fills out the timesheet, but no one, atheist or Xian, calls it "murder" or "homicide". You would say, "Because death is the natural order of things!" and so if you were in the Exodus, being an atheist, when you woke up and found all these babies dead, you wouldn't say, "God killed them--God is a murderer!" or you would say, "There is no God, so ALL these babies dying must have been some kind of natural cause we don't yet understand, perhaps some plague." So yes, that's why we'd arrest a human if he started killing babies.

The double standard at TTA is part and parcel of this argument. God didn't send an angel of death to slit babies' throats that night, they all just died... of natural causes.

We're critiquing the biblical myth, it is a story of a murderous thug-god, but none of us here are surprised at your moral degeneracy in defending the mythical psychopath.

Remember, you can always leave this forum if you don't like it. Otherwise, suck it up buttercup.

is it time to call mom here and have her deal with this Tongue
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10-03-2015, 11:59 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(10-03-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God didn't send an angel of death to slit babies' throats that night, they all just died... of natural causes.

Do you honestly think that the method of causing the deaths makes a difference?

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10-03-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(10-03-2015 11:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God didn't send an angel of death to slit babies' throats that night, they all just died... of natural causes.

Do you honestly think that the method of causing the deaths makes a difference?

No--I'm referring to the agent who caused the deaths. What you strike and whom you strike are different. If my son hits his little sister, he will hear from me. If my son hits his mother--there is a world of difference. If you strike the President or Prime Minister, that is also different.

Since God has stamped everyone's card with dates of birth and death, we should understand that there was some justice in judging Egypt. I'm not comfortable with a judge who winks at moral crimes.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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10-03-2015, 01:04 PM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(10-03-2015 12:37 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No--I'm referring to the agent who caused the deaths. What you strike and whom you strike are different. If my son hits his little sister, he will hear from me. If my son hits his mother--there is a world of difference. If you strike the President or Prime Minister, that is also different.

No, he should hear from you no matter who he strikes. There's also no comparison between a child striking somebody and a god killing innocents. Your sense of morality is seriously warped.

Quote:Since God has stamped everyone's card with dates of birth and death,

then he's responsible

Quote:we should understand that there was some justice in judging Egypt.

No, there was no justice in the myth of the first passover. The god character orchestrated the whole thing from start to finish in order to show off. The whole tale is disgusting from every angle.

Quote:I'm not comfortable with a judge who winks at moral crimes.

Unless they are his own apparently.

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10-03-2015, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2015 03:23 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(10-03-2015 12:37 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 11:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Do you honestly think that the method of causing the deaths makes a difference?

No--I'm referring to the agent who caused the deaths. What you strike and whom you strike are different. If my son hits his little sister, he will hear from me. If my son hits his mother--there is a world of difference. If you strike the President or Prime Minister, that is also different.

Since God has stamped everyone's card with dates of birth and death, we should understand that there was some justice in judging Egypt. I'm not comfortable with a judge who winks at moral crimes.

Not all of them committed these crimes, it's been pointed out to you that there were almost certainly innocents that were slaughtered by this god.
Also, you're analogy simply does not hold, if we were stronger than god it would be valid, a better analogy would be like Hulk Hogan smashing in an infant's face then calling it justice because the infant's parents had it coming.
I'm willing to even give the Israelites credit here, they prayed for deliverance from slavery, they didn't ask for god to slaughter thousands of Egyptians, but he generously provided that icing on the cake, even though it wasn't requested.Dodgy

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-03-2015, 05:38 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2015 05:42 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(10-03-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 05:47 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  In 1, you point to a modern trend rather than a historical one. Why not ask how this trend does historically? If we were to rewind a few hundred years, and look for people who were doing above and beyond prominence, how would Jews rank up? Pretty poorly. They'd be undereducated and underpriveleged... primarily because education was the province of the church and reserved for those who adhered to church doctrine. The Nobel Prize didn't exist then of course, but if we imagine a similar prize being handed out to the great scientific minds of the era... Newton, Da Vinci, Galileo... we might note a prominent LACK of Jews. If the success of Jews in such modern endeavors is to be taken (as you would have it) as evidence that they are blessed by God, should we not under that same standard take that past lack of success as evidence that they had been cursed by God, and that the blessing upon the nation of Israel is, at best, intermittent? Or is the standard of evidence different when the conclusion being reached doesn't match your preconceived notions?

In 2, you present 3... not-quite-arguments, but assertions or explanations or something like that, none of them particularly coherently phrased save the third. Addressing each in turn:

a) Killing infants is wrong because crazy people do it. You forgot to add, also, that God does it. (Supposedly.) This isn't really a reason why doing something is morally wrong. It is, at best, a statement that doing it is unconventional.

b) You assert that going to Heaven should be a consequence of free will/agency, and that Christians know this. (I imagine that the hardcore predeterminist Calvinists would differ on the subject... but then I guess that makes them not true Christians.) You seem to be (if I am parsing your sentence correctly) asserting that a principle moral error in killing infants to send them to Heaven is that it denies them free agency to make the decisions, whichever decisions those might be, that would qualify them to enter into heaven or not on their own. Which raises the question... why would we think this okay when God does it? You say it is, but give no reason why. And that segues neatly into

c) Divine exceptionalism. What would be awful when we do it is perfectly fine when God does it, because...

.... because what?

Is there no universal, objective moral standard here? Is the same act good when one being does it and evil when another does it? For no better reason than that Entity X always arbitrarily gets the pass? Can statements about good and evil even mean anything when contorted to this degree?

I can't help but thinking you don't really believe this. And one of the principle reasons I think it, is because you tried to dredge up an excuse in the slain firstborn infants of the Exodus narratives going to Heaven. WHY BOTHER? If it's all right if God does it, why even bother with that? If God sent them all to Hell instead, it's still okay if God does it.... RIGHT? God is still morally good and just no matter how horrifically evil and unjust his actions would be if undertaken by anyone else, RIGHT?

But I guess I have to take you at your word that you believe it. Fine. So if some supernaturally rapid human serial-killer had swept through all of Egypt killing these firstborns FIVE SECONDS before God was about to, well that would have been a heinous and unforgivable act of barbarism... but when God does it, it becomes okay. Is this really what you're saying here?

1. Jewish people were ostracized and persecuted for millennia. Many made outstanding gains in culture and the sciences, etc. but had to shave their beards, assimilate and leave their ghettos (prisons) to do so...

2. This thread since its inception has been ignoring most of the Exodus story and backstory. Millions of Jews have rejoiced and celebrated Passover... for millennia. While there are some modern revisionist Hagaddahs and an emphasis on freedom for slavery for all today, not just the Israelites, Jews celebrate the deliverance from Egypt with joy and don't point fingers at God as some kind of mass murderer...

3. ...Because it is never "Divine Exceptionalism" to say a potter can smash his clay or reform it or make two pots with it, one for treasures and one for a garbage can. When you die in a hospital bed, you die, God fills out the timesheet, but no one, atheist or Xian, calls it "murder" or "homicide". You would say, "Because death is the natural order of things!" and so if you were in the Exodus, being an atheist, when you woke up and found all these babies dead, you wouldn't say, "God killed them--God is a murderer!" or you would say, "There is no God, so ALL these babies dying must have been some kind of natural cause we don't yet understand, perhaps some plague." So yes, that's why we'd arrest a human if he started killing babies.

The double standard at TTA is part and parcel of this argument. God didn't send an angel of death to slit babies' throats that night, they all just died... of natural causes.

1. So when Jews are doing poorly, you swiftly reach for a naturalistic, sociological explanation... one which I do not dispute. But when Jews do well, you rapidly (and without any evidence of a causal link) reach for a supernatural explanation. Which is then somehow confirmation of the very superstition that made you cry supernatural causation in the first place. And you do all of this while saying we suffer from a double-standard.

2. Since you seem to have lost track of this, I will reiterate. Were such sudden mass death to happen in reality, we would not automatically assume it an act of god, but would look for some possible natural cause. (Some sort of benign bacterial infection that set in with the first pregnancy, and granted immunity to the product of subsequent births, perhaps?) Maybe if there were sufficient documentation of it and no natural explanation forthcoming, it would later be taken as evidence of something supernatural.

But that is not how we are discussing it here. I and most everyone else here regard the entire Exodus account as a cultural fiction. Within this fiction, there are things to condemn (Genocide by the Egyptians, genocide of the Egyptians), things to laud (liberation of many slaves, providence for those refugees, shielding them from massacre by soldiers), and more things to condemn (giving those liberated slaves rules and permission to be slavers themselves). We are not required, much as you would like us, to interpret this tale the way it has been traditionally interpreted, or the way you decree it. We are capable of forming our own opinions, and our own opinions do not ignore a tale of horrific and pointless genocide simply because it is juxtaposed with a tale of the protagonists being freed from slavery. This is not a double standard. It is a single standard, being applied equally to the parts your double standard tells you to like, as well as the parts your double standard tells you to hate. If you have to pitch a tantrum over that, at least give me a minute to go grab some popcorn.

3. That's an interesting... and bad... analogy. The reason it is not wrong for a potter to smash a pot is not because he made a pot (though clearly establishing that any property owner is on board with this helps; fine when the potter still owns the pot, but not so fine after he's sold it). The reason is that it's a pot AND NOT A HUMAN BEING. Compare and contrast the following two scenarios. First, someone picking through a garbage dump -- with permission of the dump owner -- comes across a pot. She thinks the patterns will make great tiles for a mosaic she is doing, and smashes it into shards to that end. Wrong? NO. Second, two parents are looking at their kid. They think, we made this, therefore it's just dandy for us to unmake this. Wrong? YES. The difference isn't who made what. The difference is that A POT IS NOT A VICTIM.

But let's roll with this for a bit as if it were not a bad analogy. First, it would be indeed be exceptionalism, because an exceptional status outside the normal rules of morality is being established for God. Second, it would... kinda make the moral standard for good extremely confusing. By that line of reasoning, what could God do that WAS wrong? Betray covenants old and new? How can a potter have a covenant with a pot? Create suffering and misery throughout the world solely for his amusement? (Leave aside whether this HAS been done, would it be wrong IF it were done?) What matters the harm inflicted upon a pot? For that matter, what could God do that was VIRTUOUS? If he treated people well and healed there wounds, what more is that than polishing his own pot and keeping it free from nicks and chips? How is that any great praisworthy virtue? Or is this a have-it-both-ways thing, where the pot is a wonderful and precious thing and it's wonderful when God chooses to preserve it, but it's just a meh piece of clay when God chooses to smash it? But really... how does the concept of good and evil even apply to the idea of your god in this context of a potter doing whatever he wills to a pot? Are the concepts even applicable, or is it a bit like asking what the temperature of a true vacuum is, a question that is erroneous in its conception? Is it an error to even seek to apply terms of good and evil to your god?
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11-03-2015, 06:40 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
now that Q seems to be quite for some reason lets get back to railing against the pass over

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how is the infanticide story not make anyone ask "why make the pharoah change his mind ?"
that was the first question I had about the story when I first heard it, no one even tried to answer it they tried to avoid answering it
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11-03-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
That always bugged me too. Pharoah is at first ok with them leaving, he tells them it's ok. Bit then "God hardened pharoah's heart" and made him keep the slaves (which apparently there never were in Egypt, since no other historical record mentions them, but whatever).
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11-03-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 09:29 AM)natachan Wrote:  That always bugged me too. Pharoah is at first ok with them leaving, he tells them it's ok. Bit then "God hardened pharoah's heart" and made him keep the slaves (which apparently there never were in Egypt, since no other historical record mentions them, but whatever).

It is even worse than that. In the first few chapters of Exodus Moses is getting instructions about returning to Egypt to free the slaves and we get this:
(4:21) And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

So even before the pharaoh was asked it was planned. Yahweh is just a dick.

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11-03-2015, 10:09 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2015 10:14 AM by Ace.)
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 09:29 AM)natachan Wrote:  That always bugged me too. Pharoah is at first ok with them leaving, he tells them it's ok. Bit then "God hardened pharoah's heart" and made him keep the slaves (which apparently there never were in Egypt, since no other historical record mentions them, but whatever).

yeah, I know ancient egypt had a long standing tradition of erasing any defeats but even they can't erase info on this kind of scale where the existence of a large population of slaves were omitted from any records made before they escaped the damn place
heck all the surrounding places would've heard and noticed a few million slaves escaping and recorded it

and correct me if I'm wrong but after reading the story it feels like eygpt had these slaves for several generation which makes it harder to erase all evidence of them being there in the first place

also all archeological evidence I've read about says the people who worked in place of slaves had a nutrient rich diet along with other beneficial shit that is rarely ever made available to slaves but it easy for regular citizens of the place to avail for themselves

and losing a large slave labor force means an economic shock for their civilization which didn't left no evidence of any kind
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