The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
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11-03-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
Especially since it was apparently two and a half million people who left. Now, I'm a simple engineering student and not an anthropologist or anything, but the movement of that many people would have been of note. Especially since the GLOBAL population was only 50 million at the time.
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11-03-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 10:05 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 09:29 AM)natachan Wrote:  That always bugged me too. Pharoah is at first ok with them leaving, he tells them it's ok. Bit then "God hardened pharoah's heart" and made him keep the slaves (which apparently there never were in Egypt, since no other historical record mentions them, but whatever).

It is even worse than that. In the first few chapters of Exodus Moses is getting instructions about returning to Egypt to free the slaves and we get this:
(4:21) And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

So even before the pharaoh was asked it was planned. Yahweh is just a dick.

yep he is the biggest dickhead in the history of biggest and dick and head

I wonder why we're the only people who seem to notice such an obvious admission by god to being a complete asshole
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11-03-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 10:17 AM)natachan Wrote:  Especially since it was apparently two and a half million people who left. Now, I'm a simple engineering student and not an anthropologist or anything, but the movement of that many people would have been of note. Especially since the GLOBAL population was only 50 million at the time.

according the the book of bullshit aka the bible these hopeless dopes were wandering the desert for 40 years Facepalm

how do you even find enough food for 2.5 million while wandering the desert for even 1 year let alone the 40 years these people spent roaming that over sized sandbox
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11-03-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 10:26 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 10:17 AM)natachan Wrote:  Especially since it was apparently two and a half million people who left. Now, I'm a simple engineering student and not an anthropologist or anything, but the movement of that many people would have been of note. Especially since the GLOBAL population was only 50 million at the time.

according the the book of bullshit aka the bible these hopeless dopes were wandering the desert for 40 years Facepalm

how do you even find enough food for 2.5 million while wandering the desert for even 1 year let alone the 40 years these people spent roaming that over sized sandbox


You ignorant atheist. God had a manna factory in the sky.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna
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11-03-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 10:09 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 09:29 AM)natachan Wrote:  That always bugged me too. Pharoah is at first ok with them leaving, he tells them it's ok. Bit then "God hardened pharoah's heart" and made him keep the slaves (which apparently there never were in Egypt, since no other historical record mentions them, but whatever).

yeah, I know ancient egypt had a long standing tradition of erasing any defeats but even they can't erase info on this kind of scale where the existence of a large population of slaves were omitted from any records made before they escaped the damn place
heck all the surrounding places would've heard and noticed a few million slaves escaping and recorded it

and correct me if I'm wrong but after reading the story it feels like eygpt had these slaves for several generation which makes it harder to erase all evidence of them being there in the first place

also all archeological evidence I've read about says the people who worked in place of slaves had a nutrient rich diet along with other beneficial shit that is rarely ever made available to slaves but it easy for regular citizens of the place to avail for themselves

and losing a large slave labor force means an economic shock for their civilization which didn't left no evidence of any kind

Yeah, and the total loss of Egyptian livestock would have caused an economic collapse that would have been noticed and shown up somewhere as many nations traded with Egypt.
Also, the entire freakin' Nile turning to blood and no one mentioning it?
Also, never finding a trace of a massive fish die-off from the bloody Nile or any indication in the Nile at the mouth of the Mediterranean sea where it discharges of blood or dead fish.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-03-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
All,

First, while I appreciate your creativity in coming up with new "disses" of the Exodus, some of your ideas are spurious. Such as "evidence of a mass extinction of fish in the Nile..."? a) Were you expecting fish fossils? b) Does the story say any Egyptians died drinking the blood? So why assume all the river life died?

Second, I've already addressed elsewhere this notion I've tried to disabuse you of that Pharaoh had no free will in the matter. Any Hebrew scholar, liberal or conservative, can explain how the words mean "God tested Pharaoh's heart [so that others might see Pharoah's thoughts as God TOLD MOSES would be seen]" and five minutes on Google can settle this issue for you. I cannot help you, however, if you know any Christians who believe in Reformation theology so much they include the Pharaoh verses as justifications of predestination.

Third, God kills everybody, everything! If you consider God's killing of the Egyptian firstborn infanticide (and don't get me started on the meaning of "first born" because you already accuse Him of Flood infanticide) then is it murder when an old man dies at age 90? Does God murder everyone? (Not if they are to live forever. Then He cannot murder anyone--only a human may commit murder by snuffing a life.)

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-03-2015, 01:15 PM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 12:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Any Hebrew scholar, liberal or conservative, can explain how the words mean "God tested Pharaoh's heart [so that others might see Pharoah's thoughts as God TOLD MOSES would be seen]" and five minutes on Google can settle this issue for you.

Yes, when you read something other than what the text plainly says you can make it mean whatever you want. How convenient.

Quote:Third, God kills everybody, everything! If you consider God's killing of the Egyptian firstborn infanticide (and don't get me started on the meaning of "first born" because you already accuse Him of Flood infanticide) then is it murder when an old man dies at age 90? Does God murder everyone? (Not if they are to live forever. Then He cannot murder anyone--only a human may commit murder by snuffing a life.)

Wow. You are a prime example of how religion warps perspective and clouds the mind. Killing infants for the "sins" of their parents is not something that any rational person would consider trying to justify. And why the special pleading about it not being murder for god because the victim lives forever but it is murder if a human does it? The fate of the "soul" is presumably the same either way but in both cases the victim is being deprived of the same thing. Face it, your god is a murderous, evil thug.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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11-03-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 10:34 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 10:09 AM)Ace Wrote:  yeah, I know ancient egypt had a long standing tradition of erasing any defeats but even they can't erase info on this kind of scale where the existence of a large population of slaves were omitted from any records made before they escaped the damn place
heck all the surrounding places would've heard and noticed a few million slaves escaping and recorded it

and correct me if I'm wrong but after reading the story it feels like eygpt had these slaves for several generation which makes it harder to erase all evidence of them being there in the first place

also all archeological evidence I've read about says the people who worked in place of slaves had a nutrient rich diet along with other beneficial shit that is rarely ever made available to slaves but it easy for regular citizens of the place to avail for themselves

and losing a large slave labor force means an economic shock for their civilization which didn't left no evidence of any kind

Yeah, and the total loss of Egyptian livestock would have caused an economic collapse that would have been noticed and shown up somewhere as many nations traded with Egypt.
Also, the entire freakin' Nile turning to blood and no one mentioning it?
Also, never finding a trace of a massive fish die-off from the bloody Nile or any indication in the Nile at the mouth of the Mediterranean sea where it discharges of blood or dead fish.

also the people trading with Egypt would've wondered why the river turned to blood, it would've been blathered non-stop by them if they or anyone honestly saw a river of blood and be recorded by several nearby nations/towns etc

and doesn't the blood river make drinking water a rare commodity ?

also does blood affect crops in anyway ?
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11-03-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 01:28 PM)Ace Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 10:34 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Yeah, and the total loss of Egyptian livestock would have caused an economic collapse that would have been noticed and shown up somewhere as many nations traded with Egypt.
Also, the entire freakin' Nile turning to blood and no one mentioning it?
Also, never finding a trace of a massive fish die-off from the bloody Nile or any indication in the Nile at the mouth of the Mediterranean sea where it discharges of blood or dead fish.

also the people trading with Egypt would've wondered why the river turned to blood, it would've been blathered non-stop by them if they or anyone honestly saw a river of blood and be recorded by several nearby nations/towns etc

and doesn't the blood river make drinking water a rare commodity ?

also does blood affect crops in anyway ?

Sure, an event like the Nile turning to blood would have decimated the ecosystem along it's entire 4,000 + mile length, it would have especially affected the Nile Delta. If something like that happened it would have left definite physical evidence as well every country making some mention of it.
And here Q is, arguing why it couldn't have possibly left any evidence, I guess fish can breathe blood because bible says. Laughat
Though I agree there is zero evidence for this myth.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-03-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: The Worst Religious Holiday - EVER!!!!!!
(11-03-2015 12:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Third, God kills everybody, everything! If you consider God's killing of the Egyptian firstborn infanticide (and don't get me started on the meaning of "first born" because you already accuse Him of Flood infanticide) then is it murder when an old man dies at age 90? Does God murder everyone? (Not if they are to live forever. Then He cannot murder anyone--only a human may commit murder by snuffing a life.)

I'm extracting four thoughts from this.

First, a distinction between an old man dying of old age and the story of the killing of the firstborns, is that one can be thought of as natural processes (be they originally set in motion by God or not), and the other is supposed to be God acting directly. We could definitely mount an argument about the "natural causes" death also being something that God is morally responsible for, but the firstborns case is much more clear-cut. This thread is focusing on that, and the fact that there would be other things to criticize the Biblical god for does not change that this is one such thing. Saying "HEY, you can't criticize God for A because you aren't simultaneously criticizing him for B!" isn't much of an argument. B will just have to wait in line.

Second, arguing that God can't be a murderer because God would then be omnicidal isn't really helping the case that God isn't a murderer. (For myself, I support the position that God isn't actually a murder, just as I support the position that Santa doesn't commit home invasion. So we agree on that much. But WITHIN their respective stories? Yeah. Murder and home invasion galore.)

Third... if someone living forever in the afterlife were to negate the moral wrong of murdering them in this one... and arguably, I could see a case there if that were true... then why does it negate the wrong of the murder ONLY if God does it? Under this logic by which you are attempting to excuse God of the moral stain of killing because the victims get eternal life, would not killing someone destined for eternal life then be excusable no matter who does it? I poked enough holes in your earlier potter analogy that this question deserves a second look.

And fourth, what about those we presume are headed for a somewhat darker fate than a happy heaven? Does the reward that you believe awaits the righteous excuse the killing of the unrighteous as well? Or are you a universalist, thinking that everyone gets into heaven?
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