The adverserial "Justice" System
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20-10-2011, 08:29 AM
 
RE: The adverserial "Justice" System
I tried to explain in the "Over-simplify vs. Over-complicate" thread what my problem is with some attitudes exhibited on this thread.

Among other things I said:

Quote:Society needs a fundamental structural change (as opposed to mucking around with the result of a basic design flaw) if we want to solve our problems. This suggestion was totally missed and ignored by the attackers of the suggestion. This is the context in which my proposal for an alternative was to be understood (See the "Proposal for a New Social Contract" thread).

However, many people don’t like to think in terms of basic principles because either they did not have scientific/engineering training, or don’t know how to apply the same principles to social problems.

One would think that common sense should be enough to figure it out, and it does work admirably well for many non-scientists here on this board, but we always have those who can not look outside the box and will start thinking about the details of the existing mess, instead of stepping back and examining the foundations.
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20-10-2011, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2011 09:36 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: The adverserial "Justice" System
Quote: 17thKnight:
The idea that you can have a justice system that is not adversarial is ludicrous.

Indeed, how can you possibly question the superiority of a system that functions this well ?
Even if the true error rate of America’s criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined. It means that the present number of innocent American prisoners is actually higher than the entire American prison population back in 1970.

How can you even compare that 300-year tradition to systems that have worked in sciences other than forensic for about 3000 years, or to systems of justice that have worked for 30,000 years in native cultures?

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23-10-2011, 04:13 PM
RE: The adverserial "Justice" System
(19-10-2011 11:14 AM)17thknight Wrote:  
(17-10-2011 10:24 AM)BnW Wrote:  *long post*

Very well put. The idea that you can have a justice system that is not adversarial is ludicrous.

I shudder at the thought of a group of professional bureaucrats sitting around deciding everyone's fate. The level of corruption that would exist would be enormous.

Bureaucrats? You mean like the judges?
There are countless examples of non adversarial justice systems throughout history.

I wouldnt like a system with set professionals who decided every case, and I do not like the current adversarial system. But there is a lot of middle ground there to work with too.
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09-11-2011, 02:59 PM
 
RE: The adverserial "Justice" System
(20-10-2011 08:50 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote: 17thKnight:
The idea that you can have a justice system that is not adversarial is ludicrous.

Indeed, how can you possibly question the superiority of a system that functions this well ?
Even if the true error rate of America’s criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined. It means that the present number of innocent American prisoners is actually higher than the entire American prison population back in 1970.

How can you even compare that 300-year tradition to systems that have worked in sciences other than forensic for about 3000 years, or to systems of justice that have worked for 30,000 years in native cultures?

Since Cantor revived the "Capital Punishment" thread, and one of my arguments was the failure rate of the 'adversarial justice system', I have to revive this thread, particularly the quoted post, to reinforce my point about the very real dangers of killing innocently accused people.
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09-11-2011, 08:48 PM
RE: The adverserial "Justice" System
(09-11-2011 02:59 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Since Cantor revived the "Capital Punishment" thread, and one of my arguments was the failure rate of the 'adversarial justice system', I have to revive this thread, particularly the quoted post, to reinforce my point about the very real dangers of killing innocently accused people.

Our previous lack of communication was due to the fact that you appear to advocate repairing a system I would simply scrap. Just a reminder to the studio audience who is the extremist in this minor contention. In no wise did the brevity of previous rebuttal assume Zatamon to be a "non-thinking atheist."

We are most definitely in agreement on this. No man's morality can afford this perversion of ethical standard.

And there is no error in thread resurrection when such produces clarity from previous juxtaposition.

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