The amazing conclusion of Hawking
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02-09-2010, 10:53 AM
The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Today, my father said to me with cry in his throat (or what do you call it when a persons voice is cracked because of almost crying) and told me that he heard from some radio news say that a ''world leading physicist'' has came to the conclusion that god was not needed for the beginning of the universe. For me, that wasnt anything new, I was actually surpriced that that kind of thing would be on news. Even one of the most read magazines in Finland reported about it!

I'm just wondering how this kind of stuff effects his mental health, he was a drunk for many years until he couldnt drink anymore without dying to the health problems that came with all the ethanol. He's been sober for 8months, but today he has took some again (I dont get how somebody whose been through serious health problems because of drinking is able to just take again).
If only Stephen Hawking can make him so upset that he almost cries, I wonder how much impact does his both sons being atheists have on his mental health, he has already told my mother that he is not very happy about his sons not believing in god. I've always tried to not make him question his faith when he has started a discussion about the creation story vs. evolution. It seems like he's looking for something to make him unhappy.

I hate how he always has to be so science-damn negative about everything.

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02-09-2010, 01:17 PM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
If he really believes in God, the bible, etc. why would he give a 2nd thought to anything Hawking's has to say?

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02-09-2010, 06:39 PM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Do, I saw the following news article:

Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

My favorite line in the article is thus:

And Fraser Watts, an Anglican priest and Cambridge expert in the history of science, said that it's not the existence of the universe that proves the existence of God.

But, he said, "a creator God provides a reasonable and credible explanation of why there is a universe, and ... it is somewhat more likely that there is a God than that there is not. That view is not undermined by what Hawking has said."


Based on what is it more likely that there is a God than that there is not, exactly? I'd really like an answer to that question.

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03-09-2010, 03:01 AM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Quote:Based on what is it more likely that there is a God than that there is not, exactly? I'd really like an answer to that question.
He's a priest.
Quote:If he really believes in God, the bible, etc. why would he give a 2nd thought to anything Hawking's has to say?
I have no idea, I think he has always thought that god cant be taken out of the picture by anyone or something.

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03-09-2010, 06:49 AM
 
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Speaking of this news story, when my dad told my mom about it, she said "Well of course, he is right!"

My dad says, "How?"

I said "He knows what he's talking about."

My mom says "Yeah."

Note that this is the same mother who cried and yelled at me for my declaration of atheism. This was the same mother who would drag me to the temple and force me to pray to wooden idols of people with six arms. I was left completely perplexed...

Until I realized that my mother didn't actually believe in the absurd concept of God. She supported my interest in science too much to do that. Instead, she went through the motions, praying, celebrating the holidays, and whatnot, simply because that was her routine. It was a ritualistic part of her life, and to give it up would make things unfamiliar.It is just how she was raised. And it was the way she wanted to raise me. Of course, I can't know exactly what her motivations are, but I can find no other explanation. If this is the case with her and many other "theists" what then? Do we still expect them to give up this routine, if that is all it is?

Also, speaking of Hawking, the media of course will not understand exactly what his statement meant. Hawking believes that the simple fact that we are here to question why the universe began and why everything was created so perfectly is evidence of the fact that the universe did happen, and if its properties were dissimilar to what they are, we wouldn't be here to question anything.

Thus, having solved the problem of the reason for initial creation, he then cites the fact that the force of gravity, through computer modeling, can be shown to have arranged the universe into the way it is. Of course, scientists still need to account for the dark matter in the universe that gives it the extra gravitational force needed for the universe to assemble. But lack of knowledge now does not mean flaws in the theory, as we all know.
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03-09-2010, 07:11 AM
 
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
(03-09-2010 06:49 AM)TruthAddict Wrote:  Speaking of this news story, when my dad told my mom about it, she said "Well of course, he is right!"

My dad says, "How?"

I said "He knows what he's talking about."

My mom says "Yeah."

Note that this is the same mother who cried and yelled at me for my declaration of atheism. This was the same mother who would drag me to the temple and force me to pray to wooden idols of people with six arms. I was left completely perplexed...

Until I realized that my mother didn't actually believe in the absurd concept of God. She supported my interest in science too much to do that. Instead, she went through the motions, praying, celebrating the holidays, and whatnot, simply because that was her routine. It was a ritualistic part of her life, and to give it up would make things unfamiliar.It is just how she was raised. And it was the way she wanted to raise me. Of course, I can't know exactly what her motivations are, but I can find no other explanation. If this is the case with her and many other "theists" what then? Do we still expect them to give up this routine, if that is all it is?

That must have been quite a shock, to discover this about your mother. In years of association with me, my wife has moved rather farther away from christianity with time. A big boost to her rejection of theist irrationality recently was hearing the material on "American Heathen" Internet radio shows.

(03-09-2010 06:49 AM)TruthAddict Wrote:  Also, speaking of Hawking, the media of course will not understand exactly what his statement meant. Hawking believes that the simple fact that we are here to question why the universe began and why everything was created so perfectly is evidence of the fact that the universe did happen, and if its properties were dissimilar to what they are, we wouldn't be here to question anything.

Thus, having solved the problem of the reason for initial creation, he then cites the fact that the force of gravity, through computer modeling, can be shown to have arranged the universe into the way it is. Of course, scientists still need to account for the dark matter in the universe that gives it the extra gravitational force needed for the universe to assemble. But lack of knowledge now does not mean flaws in the theory, as we all know.
It's fascinating that some people interpret the evidence of the precise requirements on the fundamental forces (such as gravity) as evidence FOR a deity, and others interpret the same evidence as arguments AGAINST a deity. A good friend of mine once said: "Where you stand on any issue depends on where you sit!" The notion that everything has to be just right for humans to exist is known as the Anthropric Principle, or the Goldilocks Principle - see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

From where I sit, it can't be interpreted either way. If things weren't just right, we wouldn't be here - so what? I don't see that as compelling evidence for much of anything, since we're obviously here. It's pretty close to being a tautology.
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03-09-2010, 08:26 AM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Quote:A good friend of mine once said: "Where you stand on any issue depends on where you sit!"

Your friend must be very proud to have coined a phrase so widely used. Smile

TA - Interesting, but I had the same revelation about my mother some years ago. I obviously don't know your mother but I suspect you are short-changing her by describing this as her "routine". My guess is what she is doing is following her culture. Some of what is associated with religion is really more cultural then religious. Over time religion has incorporated, and even taken ownership, of these items but they are not religious. Think of Easter Egg hunts as an example (although this did have Pagan religious aspects to it but not the best example).

I guess there is a secondary discussion that we can have about the overlap between culture and religion and whether cultures contribute to the problems we all see with religion, but that is for another day.

In the meantime, be respectful to your mother!

Angel

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03-09-2010, 08:33 AM
 
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
(03-09-2010 08:26 AM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:A good friend of mine once said: "Where you stand on any issue depends on where you sit!"

Your friend must be very proud to have coined a phrase so widely used. Smile
I don't recall that he claimed to have coined it, but it was the first time *I'd* heard the expression. In the years since I last talked with him, I'm the only one I've heard using it. Clearly, we travel in different spheres ...
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03-09-2010, 08:41 AM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
I was just having fun with you. And, it's an old political comment that is used fairly often in political commentary (if you watch the Sunday news shows and you click through enough of them you'll hear it at least once a month. I'm not sure who originated it.

Another one that gets tossed around a lot, and I use this one from time to time, is "you're entitle to you own opinions but not your own facts" which is attributed to the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Quote:Clearly, we travel in different spheres ...

Circles are boring. I prefer to travel in ovals.

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03-09-2010, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2010 12:54 PM by Kikko.)
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
(02-09-2010 01:17 PM)BnW Wrote:  If he really believes in God, the bible, etc. why would he give a 2nd thought to anything Hawking's has to say?

I dont think he does give a 2nd thought, but for some reason he just keeps talking about what Stephen Hawking said. He cant remember his name so he always references to him as a ''world leading physicist/scientist''.
Just a hour* ago when we were eating some real tasty piggy steaks, again he started talking about the origin of everything and once again the whole converstation ended with him stating how he believes in the creation story no matter what. I was not happy, cause my steak and potatoes got cold, since I forgot to eat when listening him speak (he was pretty drunk so he spoke slowly). Glad I live in the rich west where we have microwaves.

edit: I have to post this, it was so funnyBig Grin I just got some coke from the fridge and my father comes and says: ''its not a simple thing either that me and your mother somehow made you''. Smile I cant hold the laughter

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