The amazing conclusion of Hawking
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22-09-2010, 05:18 AM
 
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
(21-09-2010 10:27 PM)Kayshadog Wrote:  ... They didn't like my response;

"The Church of Spontaneous Creation" already exists as the basis for all Abrahamic religions. Believers only look as far as God, but not beyond. Most people angry about Hawking's assertion that "something can come from nothing" laugh and say "how can something come from nothing" as proof that God must exists as the "creator". But when questioned "who then created God" simply shrug aside the question with "he has always existed", which, to me, implies that God too therefore spontaneousnessly came from nothing. This would seem to negate the need for God since if he did come from nothing then Hawking's assertion is backed up as the believers have proven that nothing did indeed create everything.
Very nice!! I can just imagine their looks of confused consternation with your response. I love it when you can turn their 'logic' back on them!
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22-09-2010, 07:06 AM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Anyone who has read "The God Delusion" will be familiar with the 747 argument. It basically talks about the odds of a windstorm blowing through a junk yard to push pieces together to create a 747 and likens that to the odds of the circumstances on Earth that make life possible just happening to exist and then proteins joining together to form life, etc. and the statistical unlikelihood of all of that happening. Dawkins turns it around to talk about the likelihood of this supreme creator existing from nothing and ends with the great line "God is the ultimate 747".

It is, I think, one of the strongest arguments as to proving the negative of there not being a God. Where did he come from? Who created the creator? It just makes no sense.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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22-09-2010, 12:24 PM
 
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
There are only two possiblities-

either the universe has existed forever, which I think is truly unfathomable to me (although this is certainly valid and there are theories in physics pursuing this), or that God has been around forever (which brings up the question of what the hell did he do before the universe was created, and where did he exist if existence itself had no meaning yet)

or

At some point, for no reason at all (because the cause-effect temporal relationship did not yet exist) non-existence turned into existence. This could imply that God spontaneously just was, or that the singularity at the beginning of the universe formed and exploded. All the evidence points to the latter conclusion, and this conclusion does not require that you worship anything, convert anyone, or do anything basically. It is just an understanding of our universe, plain and simple, with no potentially oppressive doctrine related to it. Furthermore there is no need for science to explain "why" the universe is around because there very well could be no reason at all. Even if a reason is found, we could ask why the why that caused the universe to form was. At some point, the cause-effect relationship had to begin with simply an effect (which would be the cause for the effect of everything to follow).
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22-09-2010, 03:22 PM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Quote:Furthermore there is no need for science to explain "why" the universe is around because there very well could be no reason at all. Even if a reason is found, we could ask why the why that caused the universe to form was. At some point, the cause-effect relationship had to begin with simply an effect (which would be the cause for the effect of everything to follow).

I think you're asking for the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

And, the answer is, of course, "42".

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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23-09-2010, 02:16 AM
 
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
Isaac Newton is quoted to have said:

Quote:I have not been able to discover the cause of those properties of gravity from phenomena, and I frame no hypotheses.

Science doesn't seek "first causes" and considers seriously no hypotheses that are unverifiable by observation - science seeks to understand the processes by which the natural world operates. If this leads to insight about cause and effect, all well and good, but that's not the point of science.
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23-09-2010, 04:49 PM
RE: The amazing conclusion of Hawking
(22-09-2010 03:22 PM)BnW Wrote:  I think you're asking for the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

And, the answer is, of course, "42".

...and don't forget your towel.

Just visiting.

-SR
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