The answer for timothy 2:12
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25-09-2012, 02:35 PM
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
(25-09-2012 01:53 PM)Unreal Wrote:  Timothy 2:12 states:: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.

And this is the answer I got back.

In reference to 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul is addressing the Ephesian church where women were abusing their newly acquired Christian freedom. Because these women were new converts, they did not yet have the necessary experience, knowledge, or Christian maturity to teach those who already had extensive Scriptural education. So case in point where people are taking context out of Scripture and twisting it into what they think it means!

What do you guys think?
Aside from the factual inaccuracy of the reply, the person who wrote that is replying to a statement made about all women (I believe "a woman" is correctly interpreted as "any woman") with an argument concerning specific women.

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25-09-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
Thank you so much for your insightful words. Now could you point me to some kind of "written proof" of this or is this just common knowledge? Or something that I could relate too?

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25-09-2012, 02:42 PM
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
(25-09-2012 02:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 01:53 PM)Unreal Wrote:  Timothy 2:12 states:: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.

And this is the answer I got back.

In reference to 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul is addressing the Ephesian church where women were abusing their newly acquired Christian freedom. Because these women were new converts, they did not yet have the necessary experience, knowledge, or Christian maturity to teach those who already had extensive Scriptural education. So case in point where people are taking context out of Scripture and twisting it into what they think it means!

What do you guys think?

Saul of Tausus did not write the letters to Timothy. Scholars know that for many reasons. They were written after the turn of the Century. If he existed, as one guy, (doubtful), he was dead by then.

Has nothing to do with "scripture". There was no "scripture" to have have an education "about" at that point. The gospels were not circulating yet, and the letters were not circulating yet. The Hebrew scriptures were not "circulating", and studied ONLY by Rabbis. Books were rare.

There were a number of times when various powerful women had gained leadership positions. Whoever wrote it, (all of it actually), did it an attempt to limit the power of women. It happened a number of times. The most famous is the conflation of Mary of Magdala, in popular imagination with the prostitute in the gospels, (which they DO NOT say was the same person). Whoever the writer was, was trying to keep women in the position HE thought they should be in....secondary.


in reference to this.

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25-09-2012, 03:18 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2012 09:12 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
(25-09-2012 02:42 PM)Unreal Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 02:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Saul of Tausus did not write the letters to Timothy. Scholars know that for many reasons. They were written after the turn of the Century. If he existed, as one guy, (doubtful), he was dead by then.

Has nothing to do with "scripture". There was no "scripture" to have have an education "about" at that point. The gospels were not circulating yet, and the letters were not circulating yet. The Hebrew scriptures were not "circulating", and studied ONLY by Rabbis. Books were rare.

There were a number of times when various powerful women had gained leadership positions. Whoever wrote it, (all of it actually), did it an attempt to limit the power of women. It happened a number of times. The most famous is the conflation of Mary of Magdala, in popular imagination with the prostitute in the gospels, (which they DO NOT say was the same person). Whoever the writer was, was trying to keep women in the position HE thought they should be in....secondary.


in reference to this.

The non-authorship is accepted, by most scholars.
The "non-circulating" pattern is known, and obvious by writing methods, and historical customs. The scrolls were not passed around until much later.
The clear development in Paul, as well as his linguistic idiosyncrasies, and vocabulary patterns are also well known, (see next below link).
Doesn't "fit" in his thematic and subject interests.

http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/ntintro/1Tim.htm , (linguistics).




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25-09-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
I just looked up the full text at Catholic Online (because the Catholic bible is the one I'm most familiar with) and here is the whole 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:

Quote:1 I urge then, first of all that petitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving should be offered for everyone,

2 for kings and others in authority, so that we may be able to live peaceful and quiet lives with all devotion and propriety.

3 To do this is right, and acceptable to God our Saviour:

4 he wants everyone to be saved and reach full knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humanity, himself a human being, Christ Jesus,

6 who offered himself as a ransom for all. This was the witness given at the appointed time,

7 of which I was appointed herald and apostle and -- I am telling the truth and no lie -- a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth.

8 In every place, then, I want the men to lift their hands up reverently in prayer, with no anger or argument.

9 Similarly, women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewellery or expensive clothes;

10 their adornment is to do the good works that are proper for women who claim to be religious.

11 During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful.

12 I give no permission for a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. A woman ought to be quiet,

13 because Adam was formed first and Eve afterwards,

14 and it was not Adam who was led astray but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin.

15 Nevertheless, she will be saved by child-bearing, provided she lives a sensible life and is constant in faith and love and holiness.

It seems to me that the reason for 2:12 is given in 2:13-14.

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25-09-2012, 03:43 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2012 08:54 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
(25-09-2012 03:41 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I just looked up the full text at Catholic Online (because the Catholic bible is the one I'm most familiar with) and here is the whole 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:

Quote:1 I urge then, first of all that petitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving should be offered for everyone,

2 for kings and others in authority, so that we may be able to live peaceful and quiet lives with all devotion and propriety.

3 To do this is right, and acceptable to God our Saviour:

4 he wants everyone to be saved and reach full knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humanity, himself a human being, Christ Jesus,

6 who offered himself as a ransom for all. This was the witness given at the appointed time,

7 of which I was appointed herald and apostle and -- I am telling the truth and no lie -- a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth.

8 In every place, then, I want the men to lift their hands up reverently in prayer, with no anger or argument.

9 Similarly, women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewellery or expensive clothes;

10 their adornment is to do the good works that are proper for women who claim to be religious.

11 During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful.

12 I give no permission for a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. A woman ought to be quiet,

13 because Adam was formed first and Eve afterwards,

14 and it was not Adam who was led astray but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin.

15 Nevertheless, she will be saved by child-bearing, provided she lives a sensible life and is constant in faith and love and holiness.

It seems to me that the reason for 2:12 is given in 2:13-14.

And the entire chapter, as I recall.

http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/ntintro/1Tim.htm , (linguistics).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXSVRkKD3...re=related
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...stles.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9DFOo7DI...ure=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xH93PSZ6fQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_26Pn3Bwg

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25-09-2012, 03:46 PM
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
(25-09-2012 03:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 03:41 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I just looked up the full text at Catholic Online (because the Catholic bible is the one I'm most familiar with) and here is the whole 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:


It seems to me that the reason for 2:12 is given in 2:13-14.

And the entire chapter, as I recall.
Yes, I did copy the whole chapter.

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25-09-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
2 Timothy probably wasn't written by Paul... the writing style and tone are completely different than his other works.

Anyway, Timothy was over the Church at Ephesus. The church was started ~60AD and the book was written ~67AD. The church was indeed very young.

Paul and Timothy both fought false teachings that were heavily purveyed in Ephesus. This is seen in Ephesians, 1 Timothy, and 2 Timothy. This was an obvious problem in the church.

Per societal tradition of that time, women were not spiritual leaders nor did they have the scriptural knowledge that was bestowed upon male teachers. Ephesus was facing a very specific and unique problem of women disrupting church. It is not a far stretch to think that this was also a part of the false teaching problem that had become an epidemic in Ephesus.

Timothy got specific instructions for the church to not allow women to teach because no woman of that time had any scripture training nor had the authority or knowledge to properly teach a congregation.

Why was it women that were specifically targeted?

Apparently, the women of Ephesus came from an empowered culture. One of the Wonders of the Ancient World is the Temple of Artemis which was located in Ephesus. It wouldn't be odd for women to display authority over men in this culture - especially when it came to religion. This became a problem in the Christian church since no women had been trained in the scriptures or teachings.

Moreover, again, this seems to be a specific problem addressed to a specific person in a specific church. This can't be applied to every aspect of Christianity.

Earlier, I gave an example of someone finding a note I wrote to my wife. If it said, "I love you. You're the greatest person I know."

Would you take that note as me telling you that I love you and that I thought you were the greatest person alive? Of course not... it's not addressed to you.

This is a problem with scripture interpretation. Scripture that is written to and about a subject other than the unchanging God should only be taken in the context of that situation because outside of that situation it is not the same as another situation.

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25-09-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
The guy holding the sign should be answer enough ...
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Other than his own mother, I seriously doubt he's ever known a woman. Dodgy
Or ever will.

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25-09-2012, 05:53 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2012 05:57 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: The answer for timothy 2:12
(25-09-2012 02:41 PM)Unreal Wrote:  Thank you so much for your insightful words. Now could you point me to some kind of "written proof" of this or is this just common knowledge? Or something that I could relate too?

Bart Ehrman's book Jesus Interrupted backs up Bucky Ball's claim that Paul did not write Timothy 1 or 2.

From page 138:

Quote:Regarding the Pastoral Epistles of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, there
is even less scholarly debate than in the cases of Colossians and
Ephesians. Among critical scholars teaching in North America, the
United Kingdom, and western Europe—the leading areas of biblical
research—the consensus of opinion for many years has been that
Paul did not write these books.

But the argument you got back is ridiculous, even if Paul did write Timothy 1. Christians only pull out the "moral relativism" argument to explain why the bible was written specifically for certain cultures when put in spots like this where they have to defend scripture that is obviously immoral. You might ask your friend why such a passage ended up in the bible if not written for the rest of the world, knowing that some Christians might make such a logical deduction that a sentence written in command format in the bible might be applicable to them, too.

And by Christians, I mean you too, KingsChosen. Remember the "context" of this verse is finding it inside of a book of instruction for how to live a Christian lifestyle. There's no reason to assume that it for the women of Ephesus only, especially since the bible does not make that specification.

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