The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
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18-05-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 11:30 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 10:19 AM)Leo Wrote:  Hey Jeremy respond to this if you can . The epicurus quote: If god is willing to prevent evil but not able, Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing ? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing ? Then whence cometh evil. Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
I will not explain the qoute to you but I'm waiting for you hilarious response.Thumbsup

God's plans for humanity entail Him permitting evil for a limited duration. Once this duration terminates, evil will be ultimately dealt with.

Epicurus' objection was dealt with centuries ago. It is by no means something new.
Why is he permitting evil for a limited duration? Please don't answer me the free will crap. Do you realize real free will is impossible if this deity is all knowing about the present , future and past ?Thumbsup
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18-05-2014, 11:57 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2014 12:01 PM by Jeremy E Walker.)
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 11:52 AM)Leo Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 11:30 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God's plans for humanity entail Him permitting evil for a limited duration. Once this duration terminates, evil will be ultimately dealt with.

Epicurus' objection was dealt with centuries ago. It is by no means something new.
Why is he permitting evil for a limited duration? Please don't answer me the free will crap. Do you realize real free will is impossible if this deity is all knowing about the present , future and past ?Thumbsup

He permits it because it is a part of His plan for humanity.

It is a part of His plan for humanity because humanity is composed of humans.

Humans are free moral agents made in His Image and Likeness i.e. spiritual beings with a capacity for interpersonal relationships with Him and with their fellow human beings.

Being a free moral agent entails the capacity to choose to do good or evil.

Hence evil exists as a privation or lack in something that is good i.e a free moral agent's choice.

There would be no evil if there were no free moral agents to commit evil.

There would be no free moral agents if God had not created them.

Hence in this respect, as Aquinas believed, God is the cause of things by causing their existence. Evil is a privation, i.e. it is the lack of some due perfection or existence in something that already has existence. There can be nothing that is "pure evil;" an evil thing is first a thing. Consequently it has some existence, and so has some good, of which God is the cause. Since evil is the lack of existence, God is not the direct, i.e. per se, cause of it; He is the cause of evil only indirectly, i.e. per accidens, insofar as He causes things to exist in which there is found some evil.
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18-05-2014, 12:01 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 11:57 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 11:52 AM)Leo Wrote:  Why is he permitting evil for a limited duration? Please don't answer me the free will crap. Do you realize real free will is impossible if this deity is all knowing about the present , future and past ?Thumbsup

He permits it because it is a part of His plan for humanity.

It is a part of His plan for humanity because humanity is composed of humans.

Humans are free moral agents made in His Image and Likeness i.e. spiritual beings with a capacity for interpersonal relationships with Him and with their fellow human beings.

Being a free moral agent entails the capacity to choose to do good or evil.

Hence evil exists as the product of a free moral agents choice not to do good.
And why permitting evil is his plan for humanity? What's the point of that?
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18-05-2014, 12:02 PM
The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 08:28 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 07:56 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Your definition of quote mining is such that any quotation no matter the length taken unaltered is quote mining. It is beyond stupid. But then you have proven yourself to be rather on the low end of the bell curve.

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. - Wikipedia

This is how I use the term. Drinking Beverage

Is there any context in which the commanded rape of young girls, murder of pregnant women, and dashing babies against rocks, would be forgivable and understandable, only given the proper context?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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18-05-2014, 12:04 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 12:02 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 08:28 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. - Wikipedia

This is how I use the term. Drinking Beverage

Is there any context in which the commanded rape of young girls, murder of pregnant women, and dashing babies against rocks, would be forgivable and understandable, only given the proper context?

The "context" is "God said so therefore it's not wrong".

I mean, points for effort, but a severe penalty for being batshit insane and completely incoherent.

... this is my signature!
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18-05-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 12:02 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 08:28 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. - Wikipedia

This is how I use the term. Drinking Beverage

Is there any context in which the commanded rape of young girls, murder of pregnant women, and dashing babies against rocks, would be forgivable and understandable, only given the proper context?

Since God never commanded young women to be raped, pregnant women to be murdered, or babies to be dashed against rocks, I fail to see why you even ask this.

The passages you have read from the SAB or an atheist website do not mean what you claim they do and if you would like to debate me on it then we can go to the ring.

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18-05-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 12:25 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 12:02 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Is there any context in which the commanded rape of young girls, murder of pregnant women, and dashing babies against rocks, would be forgivable and understandable, only given the proper context?

Since God never commanded young women to be raped, pregnant women to be murdered, or babies to be dashed against rocks, I fail to see why you even ask this.

The passages you have read from the SAB or an atheist website do not mean what you claim they do and if you would like to debate me on it then we can go to the ring.

Drinking Beverage

This is his work around. You can never get an answer from the lying prick because he will just deny they say that and any direct quotes are "quote-mining". Jeebus no likey liars.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-05-2014, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2014 12:43 PM by rampant.a.i..)
The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 12:25 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 12:02 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Is there any context in which the commanded rape of young girls, murder of pregnant women, and dashing babies against rocks, would be forgivable and understandable, only given the proper context?

Since God never commanded young women to be raped, pregnant women to be murdered, or babies to be dashed against rocks, I fail to see why you even ask this.

Despite the passages where God commanded this, including ones you have claimed were "humanitarian":

Quote:Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

How about where the bible condones rape, as long as the father is paid for the damage to his "property," and the rapist takes his now "damaged property" off his hands?

Quote:Deuteronomy 22:28–29
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives

Quote:
Numbers 31: 17-18
17. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Quote:
Numbers 31: 25-40
25. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
26. Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
27. And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
28. And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
29. Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
30. And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
35. And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
40. And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.

Here we have the virgins, under gods command, being traded as livestock as tribute for sacking a city: Described specifically as "prey." What do you think that means, Jeremy?

(18-05-2014 12:25 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The passages you have read from the SAB or an atheist website do not mean what you claim they do and if you would like to debate me on it then we can go to the ring.

Drinking Beverage

What do they mean, then? In your own words, please -- Considering your last few posts have consisted entirely of copy-pasted entries from other websites which you've only just begun to provide a source to, and only at the very top, so it appears you aren't pasting entire pages of someone else's work.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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18-05-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(18-05-2014 12:30 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 12:25 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Since God never commanded young women to be raped, pregnant women to be murdered, or babies to be dashed against rocks, I fail to see why you even ask this.

Despite the passages where God commanded this, including ones you have claimed were "humanitarian":

Quote:Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

(18-05-2014 12:25 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The passages you have read from the SAB or an atheist website do not mean what you claim they do and if you would like to debate me on it then we can go to the ring.

Drinking Beverage

What do they mean, then? In your own words, please -- Considering your last few posts have consisted entirely of copy-pasted entries from other websites which you've only just begun to provide a source to, and only at the very top, so it appears you aren't pasting entire pages of someone else's work.

Reference a previous post of mine. It is somewhere here.
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18-05-2014, 12:45 PM
The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
The rape apology post, where you argued taking virgins against their will after killing their families, and forcing them to marry the men who murdered their families for sexual purposes?

Or are you just waffling again, and about to slide back to your position that when the text of the bible doesn't agree with the philosophical concept of God, those passages are "simply irrelevant"?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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