The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
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17-05-2014, 10:16 AM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 10:01 AM)WimpyPete Wrote:  But certainly the argument could be made that there are other possibilities for other types of eternity or other types of gods etc.

Just as certainly, that argument would be wrong. There is no solution set for (eternity)+(identity) = x where x does not equal (fuck that.) Big Grin

Repeated testing with me and my Gwynnies and extrapolated from other fields continually reveal that (eternal bliss) can only equal (loss of self.)

True story. Wink

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17-05-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 10:16 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 10:01 AM)WimpyPete Wrote:  But certainly the argument could be made that there are other possibilities for other types of eternity or other types of gods etc.

Just as certainly, that argument would be wrong. There is no solution set for (eternity)+(identity) = x where x does not equal (fuck that.) Big Grin

Repeated testing with me and my Gwynnies and extrapolated from other fields continually reveal that (eternal bliss) can only equal (loss of self.)

True story. Wink

sorry if this response is overly simplistic but I just don't see why this is the case? Why is it impossible or unimaginable that an eternity could exist wherein the goods of friendship and love and snowboarding and what have you could exist in an even hightened degree, and a place where suffering has been extinguished etc. Now I'm not making a specific argument here, only asking about what it is a priori that excludes this possibility, and why you think it is that eternity necessarily extinguishes our personal unique identity?
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17-05-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 09:38 AM)WimpyPete Wrote:  I agree with you that reality is what it is despite our feelings towards it, and I'm not trying to say that our feelings/desires determine reality.

I guess what I am getting at is that I don't understand or necessarily agree with the mentality of someone like Dawkins who preach this type of atheism (a reality in which we are all alone without purpose or final hope) as a kind of "good news".
It kinda depends on your outlook here. Dawkins, like many others, is not too fond of the idea of an omnipotent god as described in the bible or qur'an for a variety of reasons. For him, news that such a being does not exist would be good news. Again, the reaction really depends upon the person here.


Quote:I think a good example of what I am trying to explain can be seen in the debate between Dawkins and theist Rowan Williams which is mediated by agnostic philosopher Antony Kenny (link below). At 25:50-27:00 min they are discussing the topic of consciousness and Dawkins states that he believes it is probably an illusion and that we are actually something like computers. To this Kenny the agnostic replies that he thinks that this is a sad belief and feels sorry for Dawkins that he believes it. Kenny believes there are better ways of explaining the phenomena that are less depressing and maintain the belief in the reality of consciousness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzqa6VMI0UQ
Yes, different people will have different emotional reactions for different reasons. Some will say a belief is "sad," and others will say a belief is "a relief." That still has no bearing on the question,"Is it true?"


Quote:My point then is not that our beliefs make something true or exist etc. but what I'm more asking is why we aren't more open to considering other possible solutions or possibilities which might give a better, more hopeful account of reality.
If by "better" solutions, you mean "more cheerful" ones... it's all subjective really. Different people will react differently to different prospects for different reasons. Remember that science does not commit itself to a specific outcome. In science, the evidence is examined, and the possible outcomes proceed from there. We should not attempt to conjure up accounts of reality that either lack the evidence or contradict the evidence. This starts to become delusional very quickly.


Quote:To go back to the Dawkins/Kenny example, I agree that Dawkins' idea that our consciousness (perhaps our greatest attribute as humans) is just an illusion and that I am some stinking computer is a horrible idea and I'm not anxious to accept it. That doesn't mean my beliefs create reality, but it does mean that I look into other theories of explanation.

I really don't see any problem with anyone looking into other theories of explanation. In fact, this is what science does, ad nauseum. The problem would arise if other "explanations" that contradicted the evidence were then adopted. It then becomes delusion and wishful thinking.

No problem with hoping there's another solution... just as long as we don't replace evidence with wishes. But by all means, investigate. It's what scientists do.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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17-05-2014, 11:15 AM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2014 11:24 AM by Charis.)
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 10:27 AM)WimpyPete Wrote:  sorry if this response is overly simplistic but I just don't see why this is the case? Why is it impossible or unimaginable that an eternity could exist wherein the goods of friendship and love and snowboarding and what have you could exist in an even hightened degree, and a place where suffering has been extinguished etc. Now I'm not making a specific argument here, only asking about what it is a priori that excludes this possibility, and why you think it is that eternity necessarily extinguishes our personal unique identity?

We can't know that it's impossible at this time. We currently can't totally disprove it. But there is not sufficient scientific evidence to be convincing to us. There's really no justification to believe such a state/place on either a physical or hypothetical spiritual plane actually exists. I cannot prove the non-existence of a flying spaghetti monster. But so far, there is simply not enough evidence to warrant believing in such.

Most of us aren't saying "it can't exist." Most of us are just saying,"so far, there's no reason for me to believe it DOES exist. I'd need to see some pretty convincing evidence of this. Until then, I'm going to operate under the assumption that it doesn't."

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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17-05-2014, 11:26 AM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 10:27 AM)WimpyPete Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 10:16 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Just as certainly, that argument would be wrong. There is no solution set for (eternity)+(identity) = x where x does not equal (fuck that.) Big Grin

Repeated testing with me and my Gwynnies and extrapolated from other fields continually reveal that (eternal bliss) can only equal (loss of self.)

True story. Wink

sorry if this response is overly simplistic but I just don't see why this is the case? Why is it impossible or unimaginable that an eternity could exist wherein the goods of friendship and love and snowboarding and what have you could exist in an even hightened degree, and a place where suffering has been extinguished etc. Now I'm not making a specific argument here, only asking about what it is a priori that excludes this possibility, and why you think it is that eternity necessarily extinguishes our personal unique identity?

There is no evidence of anything like that even being possible. I am not going to live as if such a thing could exist - that's a waste of my time.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-05-2014, 11:42 AM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 11:15 AM)Charis Wrote:  Most of us aren't saying "it can't exist." Most of us are just saying,"so far, there's no reason for me to believe it DOES exist. I'd need to see some pretty convincing evidence of this. Until then, I'm going to operate under the assumption that it doesn't."

Indeed.

Insofar as "it" is even coherently defined in the first place, which, when it comes to most anything purported to be "supernatural", is vanishingly rare.

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17-05-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 11:42 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 11:15 AM)Charis Wrote:  Most of us aren't saying "it can't exist." Most of us are just saying,"so far, there's no reason for me to believe it DOES exist. I'd need to see some pretty convincing evidence of this. Until then, I'm going to operate under the assumption that it doesn't."

Indeed.

Insofar as "it" is even coherently defined in the first place, which, when it comes to most anything purported to be "supernatural", is vanishingly rare.

Especially when people still think logical positivism is tenable.

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17-05-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 03:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 11:42 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed.

Insofar as "it" is even coherently defined in the first place, which, when it comes to most anything purported to be "supernatural", is vanishingly rare.

Especially when people still think logical positivism is tenable.

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How in the hell do you get logical positivism from what either Charis or cjlr said?

Logical positivism turned out to be quite radical in its way. For it didn't simply argue against certain claims, but it asserted that they were literally meaningless. In fact, much of philosophy, much of religion, for that matter plenty of the beliefs of lay people were, according to logical positivism, not just false, not just mistaken, not just incomplete, but basically gibberish.

For instance, if you were to say to a logical positivist "Everything that happens is God's will," he would likely ask you to explain what you mean by that by specifying what would have to happen to verify it and what would have to happen to falsify it. How can it, in principle at least, be tested? If it turns out that not even in principle is there anything empirically observable that would count as falsifying it, then the logical positivist's response would be "OK, then in effect you're saying nothing at all when you claim that."

...If you believe something, but you really can't identify any way the world would be different if it were true versus if it were false, there's a pretty good chance there's nothing to your belief beyond maybe some pretty words that make you feel good to claim to believe.


http://voices.yahoo.com/what-logical-pos...09942.html

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17-05-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 03:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 03:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Especially when people still think logical positivism is tenable.

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How in the hell do you get logical positivism from what either Charis or cjlr said?

Logical positivism turned out to be quite radical in its way. For it didn't simply argue against certain claims, but it asserted that they were literally meaningless. In fact, much of philosophy, much of religion, for that matter plenty of the beliefs of lay people were, according to logical positivism, not just false, not just mistaken, not just incomplete, but basically gibberish.

For instance, if you were to say to a logical positivist "Everything that happens is God's will," he would likely ask you to explain what you mean by that by specifying what would have to happen to verify it and what would have to happen to falsify it. How can it, in principle at least, be tested? If it turns out that not even in principle is there anything empirically observable that would count as falsifying it, then the logical positivist's response would be "OK, then in effect you're saying nothing at all when you claim that."

...If you believe something, but you really can't identify any way the world would be different if it were true versus if it were false, there's a pretty good chance there's nothing to your belief beyond maybe some pretty words that make you feel good to claim to believe.


http://voices.yahoo.com/what-logical-pos...09942.html

This:

Insofar as "it" is even coherently defined in the first place, which, when it comes to most anything purported to be "supernatural", is vanishingly rare.
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17-05-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 03:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  How in the hell do you get logical positivism from what either Charis or cjlr said?

Well, now we need to do the excercise of figuring out how Jeremy defines logical positivism, and then break it down. That's of course, assuming that we want to pay him any attention. I still have him on ignore.

OP, please don't mind our reactions to Jeremy E Walker. He has a long, sordid history here and has earned the privilege of being beaten with OVER 9000 frying pans.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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