The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
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17-05-2014, 07:04 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2014 07:11 PM by rampant.a.i..)
The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 06:18 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  The Bible says it is one of God's creations.

No it does not.

In Isaiah 45:7 the scriptures state:

ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ}

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV.

Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,

"And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity." The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome." So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity.

From the above two verses (Exodus 4:11; Amos 3:6) we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11 is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.





This was not for you Chas, so feel free not to respond. Thanks.

THIS IS ENTIRELY COPY-PASTE PLAGIARIZED FYI:

http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
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17-05-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 06:54 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 06:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am a Divine Command Theorist. Our moral obligations and duties exist by virtue of the commands of the Summum Bonum, or Highest Good.

That just begs the question as to whether good is good because your deity commands it, or if it is commanded because it is good.

The former. That's literally what divine command means.

Which also means, charmingly enough, any believer in divine command is one "divine relelation" away from committing atrocities.

Hence the rape/murder/etc apologism. After all, if God said so, it can't, by definition, be wrong. QED.

What a failure pile. But it's a great way to avoid any and all moral responsibility.

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17-05-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 06:54 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 06:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am a Divine Command Theorist. Our moral obligations and duties exist by virtue of the commands of the Summum Bonum, or Highest Good.

That just begs the question as to whether good is good because your deity commands it, or if it is commanded because it is good.

people ask if qualities like compassion, fairness, generosity are good because they are found in God’s nature or are they good quite independently of God?” The answer to that question is obvious: the theistic view is that these qualities are good because they are found in God’s nature. The alternative (that God is good because his nature matches the Good) is just Platonism all over again. Platonism is rejected by Divine Command Theorists.

Compassion is good because God is compassionate. Generosity is good because God is generous.
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17-05-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 07:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 06:54 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  That just begs the question as to whether good is good because your deity commands it, or if it is commanded because it is good.

The former. That's literally what divine command means.

Which also means, charmingly enough, any believer in divine command is one "divine relelation" away from committing atrocities.

Hence the rape/murder/etc apologism. After all, if God said so, it can't, by definition, be wrong. QED.

What a failure pile. But it's a great way to avoid any and all moral responsibility.

One still has the responsibility of choosing to obey God. CHOOSING is the responsibility of free moral agents.
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17-05-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 07:04 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 06:18 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  No it does not.

In Isaiah 45:7 the scriptures state:

ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ}

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV.

Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,

"And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity." The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome." So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity.

From the above two verses (Exodus 4:11; Amos 3:6) we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11 is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.





This was not for you Chas, so feel free not to respond. Thanks.

THIS IS PLAGIARIZED, FYI:

http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

i call it copy and paste Drinking Beverage
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17-05-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
Did this thread really need to be about what jeremy thinks? It makes me sad that this has become one of many threads with people arguing with one person that essentially sucks up all the attention in this forum. The OP raised some good questions and he(she? don't be offended!) is infinitely more pleasurable to debate with anyway.

(17-05-2014 10:01 AM)WimpyPete Wrote:  
(16-05-2014 10:18 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  My personal view point, I think life is both simultaneously amazing and deeply dissatisfying by nature. There are things in this world so beautiful and awesome that while witnessing them you literally forget to breath, "take your breath away" as it were, and then inevitably we all pass and it all goes away. Birth is an amazing beginning, and death is agonizing, uncomfortable, and undignifying for almost everybody. Life is equal parts good and bad.

I think this is a quite well thought out paragraph that shows some real mature thinking on your part.
I used to think I would prefer the reality where god exists, but incidentally it doesn't seem he does. Having an after life and a fatherly figure to look over you are comforting thoughts. Christopher Hitches, DarkMatter2525 and TTA helped me to realize that this world is actually much more ideal to any world where immortality is possible and especially one where the abrahamic/theistic god exists.










[/quote]


I think there are questionable assumptions in these videos though. Hitchens argument all hinges on the assumption or on the contingency that eternal life is eternal slavery underneath a dictator. This I would agree is an unpleasant thought. But certainly the argument could be made that there are other possibilities for other types of eternity or other types of gods etc.

In the 2nd video I think the difficulty is that he is using a quantitative analogy (a single Mona Lisa vs. a million Mona Lisa's) as a comparison to something that is not quantitative (finite vs. infinite life, which is time rather than quantity). It is true I believe that something is of more value when it is unique rather than when it is inflated by duplicates. However I think with time it is different. We don't say that a life is better because it was only 2 years long rather than 100 years. Nor do we say that a love relationship is better when it is short rather than long. I think I would have to quote Nietzsche here to say that "joy wills eternity, deep deep eternity!". There are some experiences in life, which as you said, are truly breath taking and astonishingly fantastic. And whenever we have one of these experiences I believe we always, at least unconsciously, desire that such moments would last forever. For such a thing to not be possible would be mankinds greatest tragedy, namely, that we have such strong desires for realities which are not possible. In that way I think there is something sad about these types of atheism and I don't see them as the kind of "good news" that Dawkins and Hitchens hail them as. I see them more in line with Sartre and those who don't rejoice over the situation of atheism.
[/quote]

All of those videos I linked are merely interpretations on a mortal life in the absence of god, or in the case of the hitchens video, the opposite of that. If you see things differently then that is very alright. There is not right or wrong answer in this case, although there might be view points that are better reasoned.

The hitchens video makes the point that by virtue of being the creation of a deity that makes us property of them. If we are good, we are good because god made us that way, not because we independently possess the 'good' qualities. If we behave morally, or justly, or righteously it is because god made it so and not because people made it so, because after all he created us that way. Nothing more thoroughly robs us of our humanity, in my opinion, than the notion that we owe ourselves to a greater being. In a world without god we exist in a moral vacuum, the universe has no opinion on right or wrong and the other animals around us are often dubious and incomplete models for a moral frame work. If we make the world a better place through our actions we do through our reasoning and our efforts; we OWN that goodness and it is entirely ours.

Giving thanks to a deity is not just an action of reverence, in my opinion, it is an ultimate surrender of self respect and human identity. What could be more debasing and low than an entirety spent worshiping this deity? Even if he is good and just, I much prefer the reality where I rule my own, finite destiny.

I think this is the core of hitchens point, and the major point made in the other two videos. Living a mortal life means that every action, every thing you do every second of every day, is in a sense a form of sacrifice. "Our days are numbered", as they say. If you give even on hour to help people or to advance humanity in some way it is infinitely more meaningful because you only have so many hours to give. An eternal life infinitely cheapens that. Why does any one moment matter given an infinite landscape of them? If you ponder it in that way, the notion of an immortal life seems very shallow and empty by comparison.

It is the great human paradox, I think, when we ponder our own existence. Every person, I don't care what they say, wants to live forever. It is biologically engineered into us over billions and billions of years; the principle goal of every organism is to stay alive because staying alive means you get more chances to produce offspring. It is also central to our ego. We want to be present. If not alive, then something as close to being alive as possible, we just want our consciousness to persist. It is very scary and extremely humbling to imagine ourselves as not only very small, but very fleeting too. The "flash in the pan" cliche applies to all of us.

In juxtaposition to that is our desire for our lives to be meaningful. There is only really so much meaning we can afford ourselves given the reality of the universe we exist in. The most fantastic accomplishments we can imagine for ourselves in our lifetime pale in comparison to many of the natural forces and physical bodies in the universe. No monument we build will ever be as grand or as majestic as a galaxy or a star, no force or feat of engineering will ever be as massive as our own planets gravity. The legacy of every person can only outlast their lives for a little while, because one day we all will be forgotten.

So its pretty bleak I know. There is a balance to everything though. The lesson to be learned from this, I think, is to live the best life for yourself, and nobody else, that you can while you have it. You are small and your life short by any objective measure, don't delude yourself with grandeur or look to the afterlife for comfort or reformation. All of it is empty, there is only right now, right where you are, and only for as long as you have air to breath and healthy mind to consider it all. If the universe teaches us anything, its be kind to yourself and to each other. The only thing that can give you value is yourself and the people you care about. We are truly alone in this universe, and imperfect in every conceivable way except one; we know we are here and we have just enough intellect to appreciate it all. That is what life is all about, in my humble opinion.

Sorry for drowning on. I do hope you find your answers, and I think if you keep searching it is very likely you will.
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17-05-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 07:07 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 06:54 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  That just begs the question as to whether good is good because your deity commands it, or if it is commanded because it is good.

people ask if qualities like compassion, fairness, generosity are good because they are found in God’s nature or are they good quite independently of God?” The answer to that question is obvious: the theistic view is that these qualities are good because they are found in God’s nature. The alternative (that God is good because his nature matches the Good) is just Platonism all over again. Platonism is rejected by Divine Command Theorists.

Compassion is good because God is compassionate. Generosity is good because God is generous.

Where is the evidence that god is compassionate and generous ? Laugh out load

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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17-05-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 07:11 PM)Leo Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 07:07 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  people ask if qualities like compassion, fairness, generosity are good because they are found in God’s nature or are they good quite independently of God?” The answer to that question is obvious: the theistic view is that these qualities are good because they are found in God’s nature. The alternative (that God is good because his nature matches the Good) is just Platonism all over again. Platonism is rejected by Divine Command Theorists.

Compassion is good because God is compassionate. Generosity is good because God is generous.

Where is the evidence that god is compassionate and generous ? Laugh out load

You. He sustains your life while you yet deny Him. If this is not generous, I know not what is. Drinking Beverage
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17-05-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 07:10 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 07:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The former. That's literally what divine command means.

Which also means, charmingly enough, any believer in divine command is one "divine relelation" away from committing atrocities.

Hence the rape/murder/etc apologism. After all, if God said so, it can't, by definition, be wrong. QED.

What a failure pile. But it's a great way to avoid any and all moral responsibility.

One still has the responsibility of choosing to obey God. CHOOSING is the responsibility of free moral agents.

So rape and murder is okay?
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17-05-2014, 07:14 PM
The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible?
(17-05-2014 07:10 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(17-05-2014 07:04 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  THIS IS PLAGIARIZED, FYI:

http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

i call it copy and paste Drinking Beverage

With no reference to the source, intending to pass it off as you're own original thought?

And you didn't even understand it well enough to defend it, likely because you skimmed and copy-pasted?

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