The big bang
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16-12-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: The big bang
(16-12-2013 12:09 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  The big bang theory doesn't make any kind of common or realistic sense. It makes some kind of mathematical model sense, but there is no way in the present world to prove or disprove, observe, measure or test it. For now, it's the prevailing theory. To me, it sounds as implausible to say "There was nothing, not even a 'before' and then suddenly, for no reason, nothing erupted into time, space, energy and matter, and since that first millisecond, everything that exists and happens must have a reason." as to say "We have no frickin idea, (but it probably wasn't an old Mesopotamian shepherd)."

The Big Bang makes a whole darn lot of sense, and to say otherwise alludes to your misunderstanding of the vast evidence.

There are lots of ways to observe and measure it. Cosmic background radiation, the number of heavy vs light elements in the universe, using space telescopes to look at distant galaxies, and using mathematical models that work with these observations.
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16-12-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: The big bang
I agree that there are certainly some impressive theories out there, but I just consider it as "not an important part", until we have the ability to test it [the supposed "no time before the Big Bang"]. To me, . . . it's like the "god claim". When there can be no way to test the hypothesis, . . . I just put it on the back burner.
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16-12-2013, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2013 01:46 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: The big bang
(16-12-2013 09:37 AM)RaisdCath Wrote:  OK....once again, I heard this "argument" advanced last nite at a dinner party I attended. It goes something like this....."no matter how far back you go, there had to be an intelligent creator. For instance, given the "big bang", what existed before it to give it the impetus to go "bang"? So.... at the beginning, there had to be something outside the laws of nature we know who created the substance that went "bang"...and that is god."
Now....I didn't engage, for I would have been "one among many" and it would have spoiled the time I spend ogling the girls/ladies in their seasonal finery....but still.
How about helping me come up with a simple, quick, steady answer to this "argument" that will clearly define "believers" from us.....but still leave me plenty of time for copious ogling??
Thanks to all.....

Some inflationary models of the universe would answer this. Inflation is the first phase of the big bang where the universe expands to an enormous size in just a tiny fraction of a second. Think of the Big Bang like a balloon which instantaneously inflates to a large size and then after reaching that certain large size continues to expand but at a much slower rate.

Now on the "surface" of that expanding balloon, a new balloon forms which itself undergoes inflation(that initial rapid expansion in a tiny fraction of a second) then after achieving a certain size continues to expand more slowly. This process goes on and on for eternity. Basically somewhere in the universe, there is always part of it undergoing inflation.....No matter how far back you go....there is always part of the universe big banging away. One advantage of such a model is it allows for entropy to eternally increase.
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16-12-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: The big bang
(16-12-2013 12:09 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  The big bang theory doesn't make any kind of common or realistic sense.

The sense needed to understand properly it is fairly uncommon because it happened outside of our common frame of reference.

(16-12-2013 12:09 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  It makes some kind of mathematical model sense, but there is no way in the present world to prove or disprove, observe, measure or test it.

No. The following is based on the predicted vs observed black-body radiation of the CMB, the relic radiation from the Big Bang. Only one curve is shown because the observed data overlap the prediction so very nearly perfectly that you can't see the difference. This is widely viewed as one of the most elegant examples of the predictive capacity of a theory.

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16-12-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: The big bang
I know what came before the Big Bang...

...the Big Foreplay. Thumbsup

Where intuition fails, mathematical models are used. But atheism is not some kinda dogmatic assertion that one must accept these models. In this case, that would be mainstream cosmology. Tongue

If one wishes to speak with authority on this subject, one can only look forward to years of schooling followed by a period of their own mathematical modeling. Or one could say, I don't know. Or, one could say, it sure as fuck wasn't your volcano god. Tongue

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16-12-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: The big bang
^^^ I like that.
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16-12-2013, 02:08 PM
RE: The big bang
(16-12-2013 01:04 PM)DeavonReye Wrote:  I agree that there are certainly some impressive theories out there, but I just consider it as "not an important part", until we have the ability to test it [the supposed "no time before the Big Bang"]. To me, . . . it's like the "god claim". When there can be no way to test the hypothesis, . . . I just put it on the back burner.

You're statements are not very specific. At one point you are seemingly saying the big bang doesn't make any sense, and then at another you are saying the events prior to the big bang made no sense.

There are also a lot of things that we have no ability to directly test. That does not require them to be held in a lower regard.

The evidence is very strong with regards to the big bang. However, there are many things we don't really know, and some that may not be possible to know.
Here are a few questions that you can specifically say we don't know:

1. What happened before (even though the word 'before' makes no sense here) the big bang?

2. Has there been more than one big bang?

3. How different were the laws of physics at the time of the big bang?
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16-12-2013, 03:09 PM
RE: The big bang
(16-12-2013 09:58 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 09:37 AM)RaisdCath Wrote:  OK....once again, I heard this "argument" advanced last nite at a dinner party I attended. It goes something like this....."no matter how far back you go, there had to be an intelligent creator. For instance, given the "big bang", what existed before it to give it the impetus to go "bang"? So.... at the beginning, there had to be something outside the laws of nature we know who created the substance that went "bang"...and that is god."

So something we can't yet explain must be god?

The Big Bang couldn't have started from nothing, but your god could have? Makes sense.

Well....the answer most often given for your last question is this: Of course, my god started from nothing. After all, he is god...and controls all....including the lack of "all".... or nothing. It is most certainly within his power to do so. How do I know all this? Simple.....because I believe it and you can't prove I'm wrong."

So there??

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16-12-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: The big bang
(16-12-2013 03:09 PM)RaisdCath Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 09:58 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  So something we can't yet explain must be god?

The Big Bang couldn't have started from nothing, but your god could have? Makes sense.

Well....the answer most often given for your last question is this: Of course, my god started from nothing. After all, he is god...and controls all....including the lack of "all".... or nothing. It is most certainly within his power to do so. How do I know all this? Simple.....because I believe it and you can't prove I'm wrong."

So there??

Reply: Ahh, you make SO much more sense than those thousands of scientists---where is it that you hide that Nobel Prize?
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16-12-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: The big bang
(16-12-2013 02:08 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 01:04 PM)DeavonReye Wrote:  I agree that there are certainly some impressive theories out there, but I just consider it as "not an important part", until we have the ability to test it [the supposed "no time before the Big Bang"]. To me, . . . it's like the "god claim". When there can be no way to test the hypothesis, . . . I just put it on the back burner.

You're statements are not very specific. At one point you are seemingly saying the big bang doesn't make any sense, and then at another you are saying the events prior to the big bang made no sense.

There are also a lot of things that we have no ability to directly test. That does not require them to be held in a lower regard.

The evidence is very strong with regards to the big bang. However, there are many things we don't really know, and some that may not be possible to know.
Here are a few questions that you can specifically say we don't know:

1. What happened before (even though the word 'before' makes no sense here) the big bang?

2. Has there been more than one big bang?

3. How different were the laws of physics at the time of the big bang?

I agree that there is strong evidence for the Big Bang. I'm just not all that "impressed" [for lack of a better word] about the idea of "no time before that event". But those are good questions. Was there more than one Big Bang? WERE the laws of physics different at the time [or before] the Big Bang? I'm one who sees more sense in "something before the Big Bang". I could be wrong. I'm okay with that. Smile
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