The big bang
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10-01-2012, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2012 12:47 PM by Thatweirdkid.)
RE: The big bang
(09-01-2012 10:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 10:00 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 09:46 PM)unsapien Wrote:  Huh

There are so many problems with your question that I'm not sure where to start.

The Big Bang is about the theory of how the entire universe is believed to have started about 13.7 billion years ago.

The rotation (and orbits) of the planets in our little solar system is something that happened only about 5 billion years ago and really has nothing to do with the big bang.

Thank you for your input. I have been wondering if this was a valid argument because it didn't seem to be accurate. As a Christian I am really only shown one side and then shown what Christians believe about atheists which I believe is a misrepresentation. Thanks again!

" As a Christian I am really only shown one side" Pfffft.Sad
You are making me very sad. Get off your ass and go learn some things on your own - it's your life.



(09-01-2012 10:39 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  Would it not be safe to say Christians also come from Atheist lifestyles as well? I can think of C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell right off the bat. I have been told I am very intelligent for my age but I suppose time will tell. And I don't see myself as not believing in God ever. If I ever do, I will probably kill myself. So, let's hope that doesn't happen.

If you become an atheist, you will probably rejoice in your freedom.

I am learning things for myself now. Others opinions only take you so far.
(09-01-2012 11:27 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 10:39 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I don't see how something so complicated can come from something so incomplex.

Isn't God a simple explanation too? Should complication come from complicated things? Why is incomplex not acceptable just for being simple?

While God may seem a simple explanation my God is by no means simple. He's the mos complicated thing I know.
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10-01-2012, 12:57 PM
RE: The big bang
(09-01-2012 10:39 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I have been told I am very intelligent for my age but I suppose time will tell.

(09-01-2012 10:39 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  And I don't see myself as not believing in God ever. If I ever do, I will probably kill myself.


Not as bright as you might think, my friend. But you still have plenty of time.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-01-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 12:12 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  I've heard two different ideas on the big bang.

1. We are still expanding and galaxies will be so far apart we'll never reach them, or something like that.

2. We are still expanding but the galaxy will collapse back onto itself to eventually create another big bang.

The theory is still a long ways from being complete and they will probably never know all the details. I just know either explanation is better than "God did it!"

Would it not be accurate to say that for there to originally be a "bang" that created all we know, there would have to be something to bang? So, according to science, something came from nothing, but the 1st law of thermodynamics says that matter cant be created or destroyed. It can only change forms. I would suspect that a scientific Law would put down a theory. To me I can say God has always been and has no limits of time and space like we do. He took nothing and made something. But to me that's a much better explanation than nothing created something on its own.
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10-01-2012, 01:18 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 12:17 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 12:12 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  I've heard two different ideas on the big bang.

1. We are still expanding and galaxies will be so far apart we'll never reach them, or something like that.

2. We are still expanding but the galaxy will collapse back onto itself to eventually create another big bang.

The theory is still a long ways from being complete and they will probably never know all the details. I just know either explanation is better than "God did it!"

I wonder if they know how fast objects are moving away from us. Like if you draw a line from us, through the center of the universe, and to another galaxy on the opposite side. How fast is it moving away from us?

We measure the speed that something is moving away by measuring how far into the red the light from it is shifted.

You can't draw a line through the center of the universe because there is no center of the universe, no opposite side.

3. Galaxies are all moving away from each other at an increasing speed. That is, the expansion of the universe is getting faster.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 01:30 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2012 02:25 PM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: The big bang
PLEASE stop using the Laws of Thermodynamics as arguments. You are not a physicist and don't actually understand the laws themselves, and so any counterargument would be lost on you. That's not an insult, it would be lost on most of us. But we're not the ones asserting talking points without the proper education to make progress in the discussion. It's like trying to argue relativity with Einstein when you only know the e=mc² formula.

The Big Bang theory only covers up to the point of singularity, the insanely dense and compact point of energy at the exact moment expansion began. It doesn't presume to explain how the energy got there or what existed before the singularity or even why the expansion started. We use this model, not as a guess, but as an educated conclusion to the evidence presented to us (cooling and expansion of cosmic microwave background and redshift).

And I know you immediately want to fill in that "before singularity" with God, but we can't if we can ever hope to know the actual truth. And why do you assume this force has to be your god? Why can't it be one or several of the thousands of gods we've come up with over our history? And there can't be something from nothing? Why? Something technically comes from nothing constantly during quantum fluctuations. Maybe the point of singularity was outside of time and space and so excluded from the laws of nature. Why are you forcing the God answer into the equation? Follow the evidence to the answer. Don't guess the answer then try to make the evidence lead to it.

And here are two things that have been mentioned before, but need reiterating here. The first is that time and existence are believed to have originated from this Big Bang, and so to consider "before the Big Bang" is to consider "before time," which is a nonsensical term since "before" is an application of time. There is no "before time."

And the second is this video. For the veteran members... sorry. It has been posted more than any other video, but it's just so damn informative. And for the new members, enjoy.





"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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10-01-2012, 01:50 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 01:30 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  PLEASE stop using the Laws of Thermodynamics as arguments. You are not a physicist and don't actually understand the laws themselves, and so any counterargument would be lost on you. That's not an insult, it would be lost on most of us. But we're not the ones asserting talking points without the proper education to make progress in the discuss. It's like trying to argue relativity with Einstein when you only know the e=mc² formula.

If we stopped using things we don't understand as points in arguments would we really be able to argue? No one knows everything. If no one knows everything why do they pretend to if not for arguments sake. Pride is a sacred thing. I am willing to admit I know barely anything but what I do know as facts go do not disprove my beliefs. But, as with all else, this is based on the way we interpret facts. Any two people can see the exact same evidence and have two completely different explanations and interpretations of said evidence. But I will not refer to the laws as much. Possibly not at all.

The Big Bang theory only covers up to the point of singularity, the insanely dense and compact point of energy at the exact moment expansion began. It doesn't presume to explain how the energy got there or what existed before the singularity or even why the expansion started. We use this model, not as a guess, but as an educated conclusion to the evidence presented to us (cooling and expansion of cosmic microwave background and redshift).

And I know you immediately want to fill in that "before singularity" with God, but we can't if we can ever hope to know the actual truth. And why do you assume this force has to be your god? Why can't it be one or several of the thousands of gods we've come up with over our history? And there can't be something from nothing? Why? Something technically comes from nothing constantly during quantum fluctuations. Maybe the point of singularity was outside of time and space and so excluded from the laws of nature. Why are you forcing the God answer into the equation? Follow the evidence to the answer. Don't guess the answer then try to make the evidence lead to it.

If that point of singularity was outside of time and space then I would venture to say that many people would see that place as God.

And here are two things that have been mentioned before, but need reiterating here. The first is that time and existence are believed to have originated from this Big Bang, and so to consider "before the Big Bang" is to consider "before time," which is a nonsensical term since "before" is an application of time. There is no "before time."

So there was no before the big bang. I get that. But if there was no before what makes people think there's no after death. Or if death is even understood correctly?

And the second is this video. For the veteran members... sorry. It has been posted more than any other video, but it's just so damn informative. And for the new members, enjoy.




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10-01-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: The big bang
Hey Weirdkid.

About your big bang argument:

That argument you use has been used over and over.
And... Let’s face it... ALL arguments for God are said by now. You can find them all on this interesting wiki-alike site. Also: mind you that if you refer to God as a cause of everything, you haven’t really answered the question since the next obvious question is: What caused God.

About your life as a non theist:
I was raised by very pious parents. If you want to know how I see life now, click on the link in my signature.

About your self-esteem:
You are about one of the first believers who manages to extract patience from Buddy-Christ. That's rep+1 worthy for me. Smile

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-01-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 01:50 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  If we stopped using things we don't understand as points in arguments would we really be able to argue? No one knows everything. If no one knows everything why do they pretend to if not for arguments sake. Pride is a sacred thing. I am willing to admit I know barely anything but what I do know as facts go do not disprove my beliefs. But, as with all else, this is based on the way we interpret facts. Any two people can see the exact same evidence and have two completely different explanations and interpretations of said evidence. But I will not refer to the laws as much. Possibly not at all.

That is precisely what is wrong with having a religiously-based education and/or upbringing. Instead of thinking "Hmmm, I need to understand physics better" you say "I will not refer to the laws as much. Possibly not at all."

You don't need to know everything to be able to discuss intelligently - one reason to discuss is to learn.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 02:05 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 01:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 12:17 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 12:12 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  I've heard two different ideas on the big bang.

1. We are still expanding and galaxies will be so far apart we'll never reach them, or something like that.

2. We are still expanding but the galaxy will collapse back onto itself to eventually create another big bang.

The theory is still a long ways from being complete and they will probably never know all the details. I just know either explanation is better than "God did it!"

I wonder if they know how fast objects are moving away from us. Like if you draw a line from us, through the center of the universe, and to another galaxy on the opposite side. How fast is it moving away from us?

We measure the speed that something is moving away by measuring how far into the red the light from it is shifted.

You can't draw a line through the center of the universe because there is no center of the universe, no opposite side.

3. Galaxies are all moving away from each other at an increasing speed. That is, the expansion of the universe is getting faster.

But galaxies closer to us wouldnt' be movign away as fast right? Like dots on a balloon that you then blow up. The dots on the opposite side of the ballon move away faster than ones right nearby. I understand the red shift and that indicates that objects are moving away from each other but is there anyway to measure the actual speed in light years or miles per hour? Like how fast is Andromeda speeding away from the Milky Way? How about a galaxy that is as far as we can observe?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-01-2012, 02:16 PM
RE: The big bang
Quote:If that point of singularity was outside of time and space then I would venture to say that many people would see that place as God.

Well, fair enough. I have no problem with people referring to the unexplainable force that possibly set existence into motion as a possible deity.

But how to you get from "metaphysical force that started a chain of events" to "anthropomorphic, telepathic, homicidal madman who takes a personal interest in your life, and sits on a throne and demands people grovel to him or be burned forever?"

There's no logical link between the deist concept of god and the Judeo-Christian god, apart from a comical book written by uneducated bronze age fisherman and goat herders.



Side note. Kudos for still remaining civil. It's hard to attack someone's beliefs without seeming like you're attacking them and so most theists get angry, leading to us getting angry in response, and before you know it someone is suicide bombing a mosque.

Other side note. You still need to figure out the quote process. I had to hunt for your response with a magnifying glass. Just use the quote and /quote thing to highlight the other persons post, then post your own. Don't worry about getting the official poster name in there or anything.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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