The big bang
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10-01-2012, 02:17 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 02:05 PM)germanyt Wrote:  But galaxies closer to us wouldnt' be movign away as fast right?

Correct; the speed of recession is proportional to the distance. The further, the faster.

Quote:Like dots on a balloon that you then blow up. The dots on the opposite side of the ballon move away faster than ones right nearby.

Everything moves away from everything else. There is no special place that you can measure from, all places look the same. But, yes, the further away something is, the faster it is moving away.

Quote: I understand the red shift and that indicates that objects are moving away from each other but is there anyway to measure the actual speed in light years or miles per hour? Like how fast is Andromeda speeding away from the Milky Way? How about a galaxy that is as far as we can observe?

We measure the speed that something is moving away by measuring how far into the red the light from it is shifted. The amount of the red-shift is the precise measure of the speed in whatever units - mph or furlongs per fortnight. A light year is a measure of distance, not velocity.

The opposite is true for things moving toward us, but it is shifted toward the blue.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: The big bang
(09-01-2012 11:27 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 10:39 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I don't see how something so complicated can come from something so incomplex.

Isn't God a simple explanation too? Should complication come from complicated things? Why is incomplex not acceptable just for being simple?

It seems to me that when you break everything down to it's smallest elements everything that is complex comes from lots of very small but simple explanations. Isn't complexity just an intricate combination of very simple things?

The idea of everything being too complex to have come from nothing is backwards. Everything is very simple, it only becomes complex when you start looking at how all of the simple things have combined to become something complex. Maybe I'm just oversimplifying everything though lol...

But, the God of the gaps is really just a blending of everything unexplainable and "complex" into one homogenous answer.

(10-01-2012 01:30 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  And the second is this video. For the veteran members... sorry. It has been posted more than any other video, but it's just so damn informative. And for the new members, enjoy.

Great post Buddy Christ. I don't understand why you would apologize, it's not like we have to re-watch the video every time it's posted! Big Grin
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10-01-2012, 02:28 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 02:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 01:50 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  If we stopped using things we don't understand as points in arguments would we really be able to argue? No one knows everything. If no one knows everything why do they pretend to if not for arguments sake. Pride is a sacred thing. I am willing to admit I know barely anything but what I do know as facts go do not disprove my beliefs. But, as with all else, this is based on the way we interpret facts. Any two people can see the exact same evidence and have two completely different explanations and interpretations of said evidence. But I will not refer to the laws as much. Possibly not at all.

That is precisely what is wrong with having a religiously-based education and/or upbringing. Instead of thinking "Hmmm, I need to understand physics better" you say "I will not refer to the laws as much. Possibly not at all."

Allow me to clarify and add on to what I said. I meant I won't refer to it until I understand it. It angers me when Religious people often assume what people believe. That is the main reason I am here. I know I need to understand physics better. I have not even scratched the surface of physics. I simply meant I will not use that as a point in an argument until I better understand it. And as religious upbringing goes, I have had one. As far as education, I have been able to choose for myself. I will be attending College in a couple years and am planning to major in psychology and minor in philosophy. I do believe however that the expression of no religion would be a religion. No, not a religion, a worldview. People need to stop saying religious vs non religious and say religious worldview and non religious worldview.

On a side note, would it be fair to say that atheism is a religion? I know that religion is defined as "Details of belief as taught or discussed". I know some atheists like to claim they have no religious affiliation. But is this true?

You don't need to know everything to be able to discuss intelligently - one reason to discuss is to learn.
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10-01-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 02:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  A light year is a measure of distance, not velocity.

I think I mean a measurement relative to the speed of light. Like 0.53682 x SoL.

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10-01-2012, 02:54 PM
RE: The big bang
I like this guy so far. Big Grin

(10-01-2012 02:28 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  On a side note, would it be fair to say that atheism is a religion? I know that religion is defined as "Details of belief as taught or discussed". I know some atheists like to claim they have no religious affiliation. But is this true?

No, I wouldn't say it's all that fair. Remember that atheism isn't a positive worldview, in that an atheist doesn't "believe" that there is no god (although in casual speaking one might phrase it that way accidentally). An atheist simply does not believe in a god. Like that TTA video mentioned earlier, and you'll find is a common saying: "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

A person does not actively not collect stamps, and a person does not actively not believe in a god.

On another note, as Buddy Christ brought up, I would like to hear your reasons why if the original instigator of the Big Bang was a deity, why was it your God? What is it that leads you to believe that your god is THE god that made everything? Why not any of the others?
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10-01-2012, 03:00 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 02:54 PM)kineo Wrote:  I like this guy so far. Big Grin

(10-01-2012 02:28 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  On a side note, would it be fair to say that atheism is a religion? I know that religion is defined as "Details of belief as taught or discussed". I know some atheists like to claim they have no religious affiliation. But is this true?

No, I wouldn't say it's all that fair. Remember that atheism isn't a positive worldview, in that an atheist doesn't "believe" that there is no god (although in casual speaking one might phrase it that way accidentally). An atheist simply does not believe in a god. Like that TTA video mentioned earlier, and you'll find is a common saying: "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

A person does not actively not collect stamps, and a person does not actively not believe in a god.

On another note, as Buddy Christ brought up, I would like to hear your reasons why if the original instigator of the Big Bang was a deity, why was it your God? What is it that leads you to believe that your god is THE god that made everything? Why not any of the others?

Ahh I see your point and that makes sense. So atheism is not a religion. Because you don't just believe their is no God, you know this is true. I believe I understand. and I don't know this is true as to you last Question. I just choose to believe so because of my upbringing. If I were born Muslim I likely would believe that the God of Christianity was not the true God. But I'm not entirely certain..
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10-01-2012, 03:06 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 02:28 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  Allow me to clarify and add on to what I said. I meant I won't refer to it until I understand it. It angers me when Religious people often assume what people believe. That is the main reason I am here. I know I need to understand physics better. I have not even scratched the surface of physics. I simply meant I will not use that as a point in an argument until I better understand it.

That's good sense.

Quote: And as religious upbringing goes, I have had one. As far as education, I have been able to choose for myself. I will be attending College in a couple years and am planning to major in psychology and minor in philosophy. I do believe however that the expression of no religion would be a religion. No, not a religion, a worldview. People need to stop saying religious vs non religious and say religious worldview and non religious worldview.

Yes, worldview is good, but religious/non-religious is only one element in one's worldview.

Quote:On a side note, would it be fair to say that atheism is a religion? I know that religion is defined as "Details of belief as taught or discussed". I know some atheists like to claim they have no religious affiliation. But is this true?
No, not true.
"Atheism is a religion" is like "Off is a TV channel".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 03:17 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 03:00 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  So atheism is not a religion. Because you don't just believe their is no God, you know this is true.

You are slightly misunderstanding. Knowing that there is no god is gnostic atheism. I, and most atheists, are agnostic atheists. We (most) dont' claim to know that there is no god. We just don't believe there is one because there is no evidence to suggest a god. And there is also overwhelming evidence that gods of religion don't exist. There is a difference in not believing in something and knowing that it doesn't exist.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-01-2012, 03:23 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 03:17 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 03:00 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  So atheism is not a religion. Because you don't just believe their is no God, you know this is true.

You are slightly misunderstanding. Knowing that there is no god is gnostic atheism. I, and most atheists, are agnostic atheists. We (most) dont' claim to know that there is no god. We just don't believe there is one because there is no evidence to suggest a god. And there is also overwhelming evidence that gods of religion don't exist. There is a difference in not believing in something and knowing that it doesn't exist.

Yep, very true.

Weird Kid, you're entering into the finer points of understanding atheism and this is important. It may seem like semantics, but it's not.

You've probably got a solid handle on it, but just in case, here's a chart that helps. There's a better one out there, but I can't seem to find it so this will do.

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10-01-2012, 03:35 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 03:17 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 03:00 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  So atheism is not a religion. Because you don't just believe their is no God, you know this is true.

You are slightly misunderstanding. Knowing that there is no god is gnostic atheism. I, and most atheists, are agnostic atheists. We (most) dont' claim to know that there is no god. We just don't believe there is one because there is no evidence to suggest a god. And there is also overwhelming evidence that gods of religion don't exist. There is a difference in not believing in something and knowing that it doesn't exist.

So then you don't believe in it but if someone were to find evidence you're not closed off to listen? See, I've never heard this. I thought all atheists were closed off to the notion of a God. Basically, you are still searching for the truth and are skeptical then? I apologize if I misunderstand yet again. Haha.
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