The big bang
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10-01-2012, 04:28 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 04:20 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 03:35 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  So then you don't believe in it but if someone were to find evidence you're not closed off to listen? See, I've never heard this. I thought all atheists were closed off to the notion of a God. Basically, you are still searching for the truth and are skeptical then? I apologize if I misunderstand yet again. Haha.[/b]

This is true, but some people have different (incorrect) definitions of "evidence". By that I mean, some people use their past experiences as evidence. Other people use unexplainable incidents as evidence (ghost stories, miracles, etc.). Some use the same logic you have as "evidence"; that is, "how can something so complex come from nothing"? Some use the Bible itself as evidence that the Bible is the Word of God.

Evidence needs to be solid fact: unfalsifiable, observable, and testable.

If it's a personal experience that you cannot prove then it's not evidence. If it's a ghost story, then it's not evidence simply because you can't explain it. If it's a logical or theological quandary, that is not evidence either. If it's a circular-based argument, it's not evidence (the Bible says that the Bile is the Word of God, therefore the Bible must be true).

The_observer has a pretty good idea of what would be good evidence to me also. It's difficult for me to really pin down what I would consider for good evidence, but I think that if God existed there would be no question about whether there was evidence, because it really would be clearly known to all with no confusion.

Think about the fact that you've listed surviving a car crash as evidence for the existence of God to you. Now zoom out from focus on your individual story and consider also that there are many people who do not survive car crashes every day. Your crash was one of many car crashes that day, some of them fatal and some not. These car crashes would range in severity from fender benders to tragically fatal multi-car pile ups. On that line of severity, yours was probably somewhere in the middle or lesser end where there was a danger of your own death (just guessing here). There were probably many others in that same range of severity. Some of those people died, and some of them didn't. When I look at it like this, I don't see God's hand in determining who lived and who died, I see that each accident had a varied chance of fatality and you happened to be one of the lucky ones. The chances are that of all the accidents that occur on any given day some of them will be fatal and some will not be. Then you start including the fact that engineers and scientists have been working for years to decrease the fatality rates. Each safety measure adds to the chances of your survival- but it doesn't guarantee it.

Your survival is pretty unremarkable to me (not that I am not glad, I cherish human life and it is good that you did not die), being that I can look at it from a distance and having not experienced the crash myself. You have quite a different point of view, having been there and experienced the terror of it. That leaves quite an imprint. But that is not evidence for the rest of us, because that guy over there in that other accident still died, or someone else still died. That's just chance, and hopefully we've increased the chanced of survival and decreased the chances of death by using the technological advances that humanity has achieved.

I understand what you are saying. Perhaps if something happened to someone else of the same kind and they were spared they would see it the way I do. i understand that what I need as "proof" may not be the same as what you may need to convince you. I personally prayed for God to show me He existed and His power or to end my life. When I was sure He was ending my life I was utterly terrified, but then when I survived and can now walk (after a compound fracture) that is enough evidence for me. But I admit it is not enough evidence for all to see. This is the evidence that was required for me to see. I do not however believe that evidence for God is made clear based on the definition of evidence as it is. That is, that God just puts it all out there for all to see.
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10-01-2012, 04:38 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 04:28 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I do not however believe that evidence for God is made clear based on the definition of evidence as it is. That is, that God just puts it all out there for all to see.
Why not?

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-01-2012, 04:41 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 04:28 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I understand what you are saying. Perhaps if something happened to someone else of the same kind and they were spared they would see it the way I do. i understand that what I need as "proof" may not be the same as what you may need to convince you. I personally prayed for God to show me He existed and His power or to end my life. When I was sure He was ending my life I was utterly terrified, but then when I survived and can now walk (after a compound fracture) that is enough evidence for me. But I admit it is not enough evidence for all to see. This is the evidence that was required for me to see. I do not however believe that evidence for God is made clear based on the definition of evidence as it is. That is, that God just puts it all out there for all to see.

I have survived bone cancer. That is evidence of scientific medicine and well-trained, intelligent, competent doctors, nurses, technicians, etc.

I was very fearful for my health and for my life. I not only survived, but my leg was not amputated ( a very real possibility). I had several stays in the hospital and made friends with other orthopaedic and oncology patients. Not all of them had good outcomes. People lost legs and arms, people died.

So how do I thank God for my survival when others died in pain and fear?

How do you?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 04:59 PM
RE: The big bang
My aunt and uncle didn't survive bullets. So obviously God exist. If any of them had been shot and survived with no wounds at all then that would be a miracle. A great many deal of people have survived compound fractures with the aid of professional medical help. I have yet to see someone with a compound fraction just randomly heal on their own.

I have survived some encounters with death and each of them was from the help of doctors and scientist who helped create solutions. Never has God magically healed me. If you truly believe in God then would you need the hospital?

"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes, or he doesn't care or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely."
-Sam Harris

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

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10-01-2012, 05:00 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2012 05:05 PM by germanyt.)
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 04:13 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  [I see where you are coming from. So if I believe that God exists as Creator and yet cannot (well I will say has not) be/been proven does that make me agnostic theist??

I'd say it takes a little more skeptecism than that to be considered agnostic. An agnostic theist would be a person who believes in God but admits the possibility that God might not exist. If you are 100% convinced that God exists, even if you can't physically prove it then you are a gnostic theist. 99% of theists are gnostic theists. The believe in God and claim to know for a fact that God exists.
(10-01-2012 04:20 PM)kineo Wrote:  Then you start including the fact that engineers and scientists have been working for years to decrease the fatality rates. Each safety measure adds to the chances of your survival- but it doesn't guarantee it.

That is an excellent point that I've never brought up before. If God decides who dies and doesn't die in car accidents then why are we able to statistically change your chances of dying by installing seatbelts and airbags and traction control? Does God say, "Danm seatbelts got me again." or "I would have so brought that guy to heaven if it weren't for those darn airbags." If God decides then he would have to be proportionately reducing those that die with every safety feature that comes out.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-01-2012, 05:11 PM
RE: The big bang
Quote:I have survived bone cancer. That is evidence of scientific medicine and well-trained, intelligent, competent doctors, nurses, technicians, etc.

I was very fearful for my health and for my life. I not only survived, but my leg was not amputated ( a very real possibility). I had several stays in the hospital and made friends with other orthopaedic and oncology patients. Not all of them had good outcomes. People lost legs and arms, people died.

So how do I thank God for my survival when others died in pain and fear?

How do you?

I'm pretty sure you already know I can't answer you. I'd like to meet someone who could answer this. It's one of my biggest questions. I know God doesn't punish good or reward evil, but He allows others to interfere in the lives of others. And He allows the Devil to exist. I don't know why.. And He also allows Him to wreak havoc in people's lives. I don't know why He does this either.. But I trust He knows what is best. But, as always, that's simply my opninion.
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10-01-2012, 05:22 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 05:11 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  
Quote:I have survived bone cancer. That is evidence of scientific medicine and well-trained, intelligent, competent doctors, nurses, technicians, etc.

I was very fearful for my health and for my life. I not only survived, but my leg was not amputated ( a very real possibility). I had several stays in the hospital and made friends with other orthopaedic and oncology patients. Not all of them had good outcomes. People lost legs and arms, people died.

So how do I thank God for my survival when others died in pain and fear?

How do you?

I'm pretty sure you already know I can't answer you. I'd like to meet someone who could answer this. It's one of my biggest questions. I know God doesn't punish good or reward evil, but He allows others to interfere in the lives of others. And He allows the Devil to exist. I don't know why.. And He also allows Him to wreak havoc in people's lives. I don't know why He does this either.. But I trust He knows what is best. But, as always, that's simply my opninion.

It's entirely okay to not know. How can any human be expected to understand something that we lack evidence of? It is my opinion that if there is an all knowing god that it must know that my brain is one of skeptecism and requires physical evidence. If God would create me knowing even before I was born that I'd be an atheist and wind up in hell, well that's not the kind of God I'd want to worship for eternity. I'd almost rather be in hell hangin with the thinkers.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-01-2012, 05:25 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 05:11 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  But, as always, that's simply my opinion.
I don't mean to be rude but...
You just hit the nail on the head about religion...

It’s nothing more then personal opinions.

Having an opinion is fine.
Trying to force that opinion on someone else is fine as well if you got a good reason...


Faith isn’t one...

Observer

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-01-2012, 05:50 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2012 05:58 PM by Thatweirdkid.)
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 04:59 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  My aunt and uncle didn't survive bullets. So obviously God exist. If any of them had been shot and survived with no wounds at all then that would be a miracle. A great many deal of people have survived compound fractures with the aid of professional medical help. I have yet to see someone with a compound fraction just randomly heal on their own.

I have survived some encounters with death and each of them was from the help of doctors and scientist who helped create solutions. Never has God magically healed me. If you truly believe in God then would you need the hospital?

"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes, or he doesn't care or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely."
-Sam Harris

I believe God could choose to intervene if He wanted but God uses ordinary people to do what He would. God could have given the Doctor the ability to help people. Maybe that's His way of healing.. I can't know for sure and I don't think you can know for sure not. I know what I believe personally and you know what you believe personally.
(10-01-2012 05:25 PM)The_observer Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 05:11 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  But, as always, that's simply my opinion.
I don't mean to be rude but...
You just hit the nail on the head about religion...

It’s nothing more then personal opinions.

Having an opinion is fine.
Trying to force that opinion on someone else is fine as well if you got a good reason...


Faith isn’t one...

Basically then all beliefs are opinion its just my opinion requires more faith than facts and yours requires more facts than faith. No let me rephrase that, your is based on more facts than faith and mine is based on more faith that facts. However naturally I would agree yet disagree. I say it takes just as much faith for you to believe as I do. We just have faith in different thing. Although I can see your side of this equation as well.
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10-01-2012, 06:00 PM
RE: The big bang
(10-01-2012 05:22 PM)germanyt Wrote:  It's entirely okay to not know. How can any human be expected to understand something that we lack evidence of? It is my opinion that if there is an all knowing god that it must know that my brain is one of skeptecism and requires physical evidence. If God would create me knowing even before I was born that I'd be an atheist and wind up in hell, well that's not the kind of God I'd want to worship for eternity. I'd almost rather be in hell hangin with the thinkers.

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
-Mark Twain

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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