The book of Acts
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26-05-2015, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2015 03:40 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: The book of Acts
(26-05-2015 03:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 07:13 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Sorry about it taking so long Mark, Ij was busy the last couple of days and couldn't do much tracking. I had heard this in a talk once but I couldn't remember where. I was digging and I found several sources on this although most of them were apologist spin doctors. I found one that discusses it in small detail.



I wish I had a link to that lecture I was recalling where this was discussed much further, but I can't remember where it is. I don't read Hebrew so unfortunately, I can't do better than what others have done. I was mistaken that it was Yeshu and not Yeshua who was stated as the one who was hanged so it certainly could be a different person.

Thanks for going to the effort.

I had always thought the Talmud never mentioned Yeshua.

It would appear that there is some debate on whether Yeshu is actually a reference to Jesus. The apologetics like to say that he was "hanged" and that must mean jesus, since we all know that the romans only crucified 3 people ever so who else could it be referring to? But they then ignore the next passage that says he was to be stoned. I would actually like to see some actual scholar's take on this. I will have to do some more looking.

Edit: just a thought here but to my understanding the Jews did not ever crucify someone, right? They always stoned them. Is anyone aware of any instance where the Jews actually crucified someone on their own? If not, then this passage is either not talking about Yeshua at all or the gospels are completely wrong on the mode of death.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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28-05-2015, 07:41 PM
RE: The book of Acts
(26-05-2015 03:36 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Thanks for going to the effort.

I had always thought the Talmud never mentioned Yeshua.

It would appear that there is some debate on whether Yeshu is actually a reference to Jesus. The apologetics like to say that he was "hanged" and that must mean jesus, since we all know that the romans only crucified 3 people ever so who else could it be referring to? But they then ignore the next passage that says he was to be stoned. I would actually like to see some actual scholar's take on this. I will have to do some more looking.

Edit: just a thought here but to my understanding the Jews did not ever crucify someone, right? They always stoned them. Is anyone aware of any instance where the Jews actually crucified someone on their own? If not, then this passage is either not talking about Yeshua at all or the gospels are completely wrong on the mode of death.

I don't think the Jews ever crucified anyone, but I'm happy to be corrected.
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28-05-2015, 08:38 PM
RE: The book of Acts
Quote:After the second Jewish War of 132 to 135 the Christians became more overtly anti-Jewish. Perhaps this happened too because it became clear that Jews were not buying into the bullshit.


The "second Jewish War" was actually the 3d Jewish War, Mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War


Quote:I don't think the Jews ever crucified anyone, but I'm happy to be corrected.

If you listen to Josephus.....

Quote:[379] Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; [380] G and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethoma, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and got the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes.

http://www.attalus.org/old/aj_13c.html#377


Of course with Josephus you always knock off a zero...or two.

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28-05-2015, 08:48 PM
RE: The book of Acts
(28-05-2015 08:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:After the second Jewish War of 132 to 135 the Christians became more overtly anti-Jewish. Perhaps this happened too because it became clear that Jews were not buying into the bullshit.


The "second Jewish War" was actually the 3d Jewish War, Mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War


Quote:I don't think the Jews ever crucified anyone, but I'm happy to be corrected.

If you listen to Josephus.....

Quote:[379] Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; [380] G and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethoma, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and got the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes.

http://www.attalus.org/old/aj_13c.html#377


Of course with Josephus you always knock off a zero...or two.

yes ok, but the war of 132-5 is usually referred to as the second Jewish War...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topi...ish-Revolt
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29-05-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: The book of Acts
(28-05-2015 08:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:After the second Jewish War of 132 to 135 the Christians became more overtly anti-Jewish. Perhaps this happened too because it became clear that Jews were not buying into the bullshit.


The "second Jewish War" was actually the 3d Jewish War, Mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War


Quote:I don't think the Jews ever crucified anyone, but I'm happy to be corrected.

If you listen to Josephus.....

Quote:[379] Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; [380] G and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethoma, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and got the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes.

http://www.attalus.org/old/aj_13c.html#377


Of course with Josephus you always knock off a zero...or two.

That quote actually implies that it was Alexander (and thereby his guys), not the jews who crucified those people. That is how I read it anyway. It reads as if he (Alex) laid siege to Bethoma and after the city fell, did the rest. It never says that the Jews were the ones who crucified the people, it certainly could have been Alex's men. All it says is that 600(0) Jews fought with him, but who knows?

I was more referring to the execution of a criminal, not a wartime act. I should have been more specific. It is my understanding that the Jews only executed criminals by stoning.

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The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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29-05-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: The book of Acts
He is speaking of Alexander Jannaeus a first century Hasmonean king of Judah. Not Alexander the Great who, as far as we can tell, never lowered himself to go to a third-rate little shithole like Jerusalem in the 4th century.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Jannaeus

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29-05-2015, 04:02 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2015 05:50 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: The book of Acts
(29-05-2015 10:29 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  He is speaking of Alexander Jannaeus a first century Hasmonean king of Judah. Not Alexander the Great who, as far as we can tell, never lowered himself to go to a third-rate little shithole like Jerusalem in the 4th century.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Jannaeus

Thanks for filling us in on this.

While we're on the topic of crucifixion, this is how I see Jeebus'...

Crucifixion was an agonizing, demeaning, public death, one reserved for insurgents. It was used by Romans to intimidate anyone who might undermine their authority. The Roman soldiers nailed zealots up naked on a cross; it was part of the humiliation. The degrading death was designed to discourage other charismatic leaders from having their own dangerous dreams.

The sign or “titulus” (Latin for “inscription” or “label”) was the Roman way of exhibiting the explanation for the execution. It was written by Pilate, and read “King of the Jews,” a reflection of Jesus’ real crime.

Luke had a dying Jesus say
“Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing,” (Luke 23:34, NJB)

referring to the Roman soldiers who had just scourged, mocked and nailed him naked to a cross. It is hard to imagine that Yeshua said this. He is more likely to have damned these soldiers with his dying breaths!

A Roman centurion supposedly said,
“In truth this was the Son of God” (Matt. 27:54, NJB.)

Yet Christianity, which claimed Jesus was the Son of God, had yet to be invented!

The two men Yeshua was crucified with were labeled as “lestai,” incorrectly translated in some Bibles as “robbers.” In fact “lestai” was a derogatory term for insurrectionists, who, by armed action, opposed Roman rule.
( http://www.drabruzzi.com/jesus_movement.htm, )
( http://haqol.wordpress.com/2010/12/30/th...tai-rebel/ ). So the Roman soldiers crucified Jesus between two zealots, it is written that Jesus thought he was the King of the Jews, and yet the reader is expected to believe that Jesus was a pacifist preacher with- out any political ambitions!

Roman law allowed no burial rights to those killed by crucifixion. Yeshua’s body would have been left on display for birds and dogs as a deterrent to others who might disobey Rome, although it is possible that Pilate made an exception and gave permission for the body to be buried.
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29-05-2015, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2015 10:02 PM by Minimalist.)
RE: The book of Acts
Quote:Yet Christianity, which claimed Jesus was the Son of God, had yet to be invented!


Part of the problem is that we don't know when the "jesus" part of the story was written in. What we know for a fact is that no Greco-Roman writer mentions anyone named "jesus" until Celsus is reported to do so in Origen's Contra Celsus. Celsus lived about 180 AD so, if he was not a straw man created for Origen to knock down ( which seems like a fairly modern concept ) then we can assume that the Romans heard about "jesus" by the late 2d century.

As to your unspoken question - "why crucifixion?" The argument usually goes along the lines of "why would christians invent such a horrible death for their god?" and then try to apply the criteria of embarrassment to show that the story must have been real. But there is another part of the story. The gospel accounts become exceedingly more anti-semitic as they go along. The Romans are portrayed as trying to get jesus off (and by that I mean legally - not sexually.) Pilate says, "what has he done?" His wife says "don't do it." The centurion say "truly this was the son of god." Yada, yada, yada. It is the JEWS who demand he be crucified.

Quote:12 Pilate asked them, “Then what should I do with this man you call the king of the Jews?”

13 They shouted back, “Crucify him!”

14 “Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?”

But the mob roared even louder, “Crucify him!”

15 So to pacify the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He ordered Jesus flogged with a lead-tipped whip, then turned him over to the Roman soldiers to be crucified.

Mark 15

Quote:15 Herod came to the same conclusion and sent him back to us. Nothing this man has done calls for the death penalty. 16 So I will have him flogged, and then I will release him.”[a]

18 Then a mighty roar rose from the crowd, and with one voice they shouted, “Kill him, and release Barabbas to us!” 19 (Barabbas was in prison for taking part in an insurrection in Jerusalem against the government, and for murder.) 20 Pilate argued with them, because he wanted to release Jesus. 21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”

Luke 23

Quote:21 So the governor asked again, “Which of these two do you want me to release to you?”

The crowd shouted back, “Barabbas!”

22 Pilate responded, “Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah?”

They shouted back, “Crucify him!”

23 “Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?”

But the mob roared even louder, “Crucify him!”

Matty 27

Quote:Then Pilate tried to release him, but the Jewish leaders shouted, “If you release this man, you are no ‘friend of Caesar.’[d] Anyone who declares himself a king is a rebel against Caesar.”

13 When they said this, Pilate brought Jesus out to them again. Then Pilate sat down on the judgment seat on the platform that is called the Stone Pavement (in Hebrew, Gabbatha). 14 It was now about noon on the day of preparation for the Passover. And Pilate said to the people,[e] “Look, here is your king!”

15 “Away with him,” they yelled. “Away with him! Crucify him!”

“What? Crucify your king?” Pilate asked.

“We have no king but Caesar,” the leading priests shouted back.

16 Then Pilate turned Jesus over to them to be crucified.

John 19

The crucifixion scene was meant to stir up xtian hatred against the jews ( who by the mid 2d century AD were distinctly persona non grata in the Roman world and to get the Romans off the hook.

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29-05-2015, 05:52 PM
RE: The book of Acts
(28-05-2015 08:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 08:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  The "second Jewish War" was actually the 3d Jewish War, Mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War



If you listen to Josephus.....


http://www.attalus.org/old/aj_13c.html#377


Of course with Josephus you always knock off a zero...or two.

yes ok, but the war of 132-5 is usually referred to as the second Jewish War...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topi...ish-Revolt

The Encyclopedia Brittanica can be wrong, too!

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29-05-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: The book of Acts
(29-05-2015 05:48 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Yet Christianity, which claimed Jesus was the Son of God, had yet to be invented!


Part of the problem is that we don't know when the "jesus" part of the story was written in. What we know for a fact is that no Greco-Roman writer mentions anyone named "jesus" until Celsus is reported to do so in Origen's Contra Celsus. Celsus lived about 180 AD so, if he was not a straw man created for Origen to knock down ( which seems like a fairly modern concept ) then we can assume that the Romans heard about "jesus" by the late 2d century.

As to your unspoken question - "why crucifixion?" The argument usually goes along the lines of "why would christians invent such a horrible death for their god?" and then try to apply the criteria of embarrassment to show that the story must have been real. But there is another part of the story. The gospel accounts become exceedingly more anti-semitic as they go along. The Romans are portrayed as trying to get jesus off (and by that I mean legally - not sexually.) Pilate says, "what has he done?" His wife says "don't do it." The centurion say "truly this was the sone of god." Yada, yada, yada. It is the JEWS who demand he be crucified.

Quote:12 Pilate asked them, “Then what should I do with this man you call the king of the Jews?”

13 They shouted back, “Crucify him!”

14 “Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?”

But the mob roared even louder, “Crucify him!”

15 So to pacify the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He ordered Jesus flogged with a lead-tipped whip, then turned him over to the Roman soldiers to be crucified.

Mark 15

Quote:15 Herod came to the same conclusion and sent him back to us. Nothing this man has done calls for the death penalty. 16 So I will have him flogged, and then I will release him.”[a]

18 Then a mighty roar rose from the crowd, and with one voice they shouted, “Kill him, and release Barabbas to us!” 19 (Barabbas was in prison for taking part in an insurrection in Jerusalem against the government, and for murder.) 20 Pilate argued with them, because he wanted to release Jesus. 21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”

Luke 23

Quote:21 So the governor asked again, “Which of these two do you want me to release to you?”

The crowd shouted back, “Barabbas!”

22 Pilate responded, “Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah?”

They shouted back, “Crucify him!”

23 “Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?”

But the mob roared even louder, “Crucify him!”

Matty 27

Quote:Then Pilate tried to release him, but the Jewish leaders shouted, “If you release this man, you are no ‘friend of Caesar.’[d] Anyone who declares himself a king is a rebel against Caesar.”

13 When they said this, Pilate brought Jesus out to them again. Then Pilate sat down on the judgment seat on the platform that is called the Stone Pavement (in Hebrew, Gabbatha). 14 It was now about noon on the day of preparation for the Passover. And Pilate said to the people,[e] “Look, here is your king!”

15 “Away with him,” they yelled. “Away with him! Crucify him!”

“What? Crucify your king?” Pilate asked.

“We have no king but Caesar,” the leading priests shouted back.

16 Then Pilate turned Jesus over to them to be crucified.

John 19

The crucifixion scene was meant to stir up xtian hatred against the jews ( who by the mid 2d century AD were distinctly persona non grata in the Roman world and to get the Romans off the hook.

I agree with everything you've written.

Let me share my best guess with you about how this evolved.

I think there probably was a Yeshua. He could've been a Gallilean Jew, who, in the 30s, tried to start a war in Jerusalem with Rome. He came off second best. He had a brother named James who lived in Jerusalem for the next 30 years or so and became quite prominent.

There was a massive war in 66 to 70, the Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was routed.

The government then created the gospels. They used the memory of the crucified Galilean as the basis for creating an anti-Jewish, pro Roman watered down version of Judaism. Jeebus was said to be the Jewish Messiah. Jeebus was made out to be a pacifist, to turn the other cheek, and pay taxes, not an anti-Roman zealot.

Paul's version of Christianity talked about a Christ... it was part of the government's prewar propaganda effort.

In the second century Jesus and Christ were merged, and the gospels were edited and interpolated. Jesus Christ the son of God who was crucified by his own people the Jews, emerged. It was the very opposite of who the real character may have been.

What ended up as the gospels contained little pieces of Jesus the zealot, little pieces of Jesus the Jew, and a fair bit of Christ the son of God.
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