The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
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09-06-2011, 01:20 PM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
(09-06-2011 12:08 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  In other words, get ready, because there are people, such as me (much more free-thinking), who are much smarter than you, and have much better and simpler ways of building community - which is what you are trying to do with this manifesto rendering
This is absolutely not my ambition...
Only some deluded over ambitious prick, lacking serious intelligence would think he can change the world, and build a community single handed. Smile

Thanks for the feedback. If TrainWreck bothers to try and destroy it, it must be good.

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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09-06-2011, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2011 01:47 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
You are constructing a social agreement and don't know it - that is what you have done.

(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Let's face it... We are both stuck here on this planet. No matter what you are trying to say, or how you are trying to convince me of your deity, it is a plain fact that everything is said, I am not convinced and yet we will be forced to live together here.
Lately, I've been thinking on how we could make it easier on ourselves. To do so, the only thing I ask of you, is that you see "Religion" wider as "A believe in Gods". To me as a freethinker with layman's interest in theology, religion breaks up into 5 parts. Denomination, Dogma, Believes, Values, Rituals.
Let me first give some examples on what I understand under these terms.
  • Denomination: Your section on the theistic map. (Are you a "Sunni Muslim", "A Roman-catholic Christian", "A Baptist Christian",...)
  • Dogma: Indisputable truths that you consider "deity given". ("Yahweh is the one true God and Jesus was his son" or "Allah is the one true god and Mohamed is his prophet.")
  • Believes: Things that you accept as truth but that are disputable from denomination to denomination. ("The pope is the substitute for God on earth" or "If I accept Jesus as my lord and Saviour I am saved from sin")
  • Values: Things you see as good or that you see as evil (the drinking of alcohol, gays, Having faith, Honoring your parents)
  • Rituals: Things that you do to underscore the consistency of your religious group ("Holy mass", "Pilgrimage to Mekka")
If you accept this view on religion, we can have ourself a start. I can perfectly document my world-view and philosophies inside this kind of religious mould. If you can see my freethinking as a religion, perhaps we can come to a better understanding about each other and find "common ground".
One last remark: All the statements below are my personal statements. Although you might find other freethinkers who's statements are alike, they probably won't agree on all of them.
You are going to state your philosophy in the terms agreed upon to what avail?

I explained to you previously that religious values of morality are enforceable by law and are not arbitrary personal conditions. And, then you are going to put together your value system which is vague, and sets up the negotiations as to what is right and wrong.

(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Deliberately violating someone's psychological or physical integrity against his/hers will is considered a sin.
Deliberately violating someone's psychological or physical integrity against his/hers will without taking responsibility is considered a penal sin.
Deliberately violating a child's psychological or physical integrity without taking responsibility is considered high treason to humanity. (consider yourself lucky that the people in charge are even more compassionate then I am)
In general, not be willing to take responsibility for your actions is "the original sin" if you like to call it that way.
Thinking that you're more important then that you're in reality are is a sin
Neglect of your reasoning and that of the children you steward is a sin

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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09-06-2011, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2011 01:50 PM by Observer.)
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
(09-06-2011 01:37 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  You are going to state your philosophy in the terms agreed upon to what avail?
Personal.
Quote:I explained to you previously that religious values of morality are enforceable by law and are not arbitrary personal conditions. And, then you are going to put together your value system which is vague, and sets up the negotiations as to what is right and wrong.
thats why I call it a value and not a law.

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-06-2011, 01:24 PM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
That is why you call it values, and not morality.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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12-12-2011, 07:59 AM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
I know this is an older post. I followed your link from another post. I liked it very much. I have typed out a couple things similar but not as long. It is very well thought out and the best thing about it is you have a basis to build upon.

Very well done. I enjoyed reading it and can relate to much of it. It helps to read other peoples views on this matter. Some people (me too a lot of the time) can't express themselves properly and things like this lead to a better understanding of how to do it.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

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12-12-2011, 09:35 AM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
(12-12-2011 07:59 AM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  I know this is an older post. I followed your link from another post. I liked it very much. I have typed out a couple things similar but not as long. It is very well thought out and the best thing about it is you have a basis to build upon.

Very well done. I enjoyed reading it and can relate to much of it. It helps to read other peoples views on this matter. Some people (me too a lot of the time) can't express themselves properly and things like this lead to a better understanding of how to do it.

Ditto.

And WTF is this Wreck dude? I feel as if I came to the party way too late.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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12-12-2011, 12:26 PM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
I wanna play!

(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Denomination:

Temple of Set; which is basically strong atheism from my perspective. The Egyptian neter Set is a convergence in my viewpoint to a singularity of primal archetype without agency and individual identity. This view is not unheard of in Setian circles, as Set is a Left-Hand path; one of individual self-knowledge.

(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Dogma:

I know I love Gwyneth Paltrow. Everything else is hypothesis. Like what I had for breakfast this morning. I just woke up and haven't eaten, so the answer nothing gives the appearance of reality. At the same time, after midnight is technically morning, and I was munching on stuff until five; so...

(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Believes:

I believe that's a bad verb, "to believe." I avoid it and use the noun "faith" instead. Then you hear the atheists in the crowd... Big Grin

But the Dogma above covers it. For all my insanity, I have a mathematical mind; I don't really "believe" stuff but rather have a sliding scale of probability of likelihood a given hypothesis is valid. For instance: I like Hershey's Kisses. That's been pretty safe for a while, but one of these days I'm gonna have extra scratch and come home with twelve sacks of 'em... That will be followed by a time of "no more!"

(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Values:

Gwyneth Paltrow... but she's not a "real girl" to Johnny Cantor, so Johhny had to use "make believe flowers" to woo the "make believe aspect" of Gwyneth, which somehow (don't forget the insanity part when dealing with Hoc Wink ) came out to "save humanity for my Gwynnies." Because she's sweet and adorable and would get a kick out of that sort of thing. And because she's sweet and adorable and Johnny ain't so bad for a nutter, it's not as "over the top" as it seems. There's three elements: The naive philosophy of "set theory," the nascent science of electromagnetic communication and simulation (which is technically witchcraft at this stage, but given time, an hypothesis with real potential to become valuable scientific theory), and the ethical standard of "I love."

(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Rituals:

Must be pictures of Gwyneth in my environment... (quit it with the Louis the fourteenth. Tongue)

Which is me running my neck cause I got lots of it. One thing the observer said that a lot of atheists let slide, however, resonates with this unit. In my terms - positive faith. If one doesn't have positive faith in at least the "Rational Trinity" of (faith in self/faith in the existence of the universe/ faith in meaning of self in relation to the universe - a.k.a. what are you gonna do about it?), then one ain't doing much other than taking up space. We got enough sheeple. What is needed is people of positive vision and long-term strategy.

And that's all the soapbox I got for right now... Big Grin

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12-12-2011, 12:58 PM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
I like this post, good stuff The_observer. Well-thought and clear, and excellent points made.

I think that taking the straw-man argument of the religious, "You have to believe in something!", and framing it so that they no longer hold the corner on it is a good approach. It is a concession (ok, I believe in "something"), a compromise (let's agree on what "something" can be), and a way to gain solid footing in a discussion so long as the terms of the definition are agreed upon. I think that this is a good thing in an honest discussion. At the very least, looking at this in terms of self-definition is a good exercise and one we can all benefit from.

If they are denied by the obstinate, then you still at least hold the footing of saying, "I tried".
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12-12-2011, 02:16 PM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
Thank you peeps...
Forming this post was a turning point in my atheist views.

(12-12-2011 09:35 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  And WTF is this Wreck dude? I feel as if I came to the party way too late.

Oh him...
He's a fairly intelligent member providing good feedback and food for thought unhindered by any form of social skill. Smile

(12-12-2011 12:26 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(18-05-2011 02:12 PM)The_observer Wrote:  Values:

Gwyneth Paltrow...
I'm sorry to inform you that I'm also an apaltrowist..

Observer

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12-12-2011, 02:19 PM
RE: The common ground - Open letter to religious folks and free-thinkers
(12-12-2011 02:16 PM)The_observer Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 09:35 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  And WTF is this Wreck dude? I feel as if I came to the party way too late.

Oh him...
He's a fairly intelligent member providing good feedback and food for thought unhindered by any form of social skill. Smile

That is a hilarious awesome and spot-on summary of what I read of his replies in this thread. That just might be sig-worthy right there. Big Grin

If he were still around, I definitely would put that as my sig.
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