The concept of sin contradicts god’s alleged attributes
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26-07-2015, 07:54 PM
RE: The concept of sin contradicts god’s alleged attributes
(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, he can be in the presence of sin if He wants to. Separation from God doesn't mean that sinner can not see God once in a while. Some mortals saw Him. Separation from God means that sinner can not be with God anytime he or she wants.

This makes no sense, you said a sinner can be in the presence of god, but then they can't.

It's irrelevant to a god that is omnipotent.

Please provide evidence for these mortals that saw him, was it Michelangelo?

(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  Omnipresent doesn't mean that He is everywhere at the same time(it would be absurd). Omnipresent(according to Him) is that He can be anywhere He wants to or anywhere He needs to when He wants or needs to be( both literally or figuratively).

Yeah, that's exactly what it means.

Omnipotence

You don't get to redefine words at your convenience.

(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  God doesn't need it. We need it. Veil/separation is to protect sinner(mortal man).
Mortal man can not be next to the source of high radiation and live. God is Light. His glorified resurrected body is source of great light and great radiation. Man(mortal) can not see God and live after that.

WTF are you talking about? Again, this is not a problem for a god that is omnipotent.

Feel free to quantify the intensity, frequency and type of radiation.
Perhaps you could actually provide evidence to back up that assertion?

(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are no Gods in hell. They are in the place called Heaven.
But if God wants to visit hell He can . God Son did visit hell between His death and resurrection.

If he is omnipresent, then he is in hell and heaven, that's what that term means.
How would you know what is in hell? Have you been there? Do you have evidence for it's existence?

(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  Not at all if you know what God means when He says that He is Omni-something.

If you just make ridiculous assertions and redefine your terms, sure.

Again, this god doesn't say anything since there is no evidence that it exists, and there's certainly no reason to believe you understand anything about it, even if it did.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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26-07-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: The concept of sin contradicts god’s alleged attributes
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, he can be in the presence of sin if He wants to. Separation from God doesn't mean that sinner can not see God once in a while. Some mortals saw Him. Separation from God means that sinner can not be with God anytime he or she wants.
This makes no sense, you said a sinner can be in the presence of god, but then they can't.
I can explain. No sinner can see God and live. Great light and radiation will kill him/her. But when God has to talk to a sinner once in a while He makes sure that there is a shield between Him and sinner. Shield that protects sinner.
But no sinner can see God without protection/veil/shield. No sinner can touch God. It is still separation from God(through the veil we(sinners)can see God)
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Please provide evidence for these mortals that saw him, was it Michelangelo?
what for? I only respond to your arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  Omnipresent doesn't mean that He is everywhere at the same time(it would be absurd). Omnipresent(according to Him) is that He can be anywhere He wants to or anywhere He needs to when He wants or needs to be( both literally or figuratively).
Yeah, that's exactly what it means.

Omnipotence

You don't get to redefine words at your convenience.
I only tell you what God means when He says that He is omnipotent not what somebody else means.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  God doesn't need it. We need it. Veil/separation is to protect sinner(mortal man).
Mortal man can not be next to the source of high radiation and live. God is Light. His glorified resurrected body is source of great light and great radiation. Man(mortal) can not see God and live after that.
WTF are you talking about? Again, this is not a problem for a god that is omnipotent.
When God says that He is omnipotent He means that He can be where He wants to be when He wants to be. You can't do this. Powerful God can. You can not be on the moon in 5 min. God can. If He want to visit moon He will be there exactly when He wants to be there. He is omnipotent. He also can be among us right now. No, not literally.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Feel free to quantify the intensity, frequency and type of radiation.
Perhaps you could actually provide evidence to back up that assertion?
I only respond to your initial arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 07:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  There are no Gods in hell. They are in the place called Heaven.
But if God wants to visit hell He can . God Son did visit hell between His death and resurrection.
If he is omnipresent, then he is in hell and heaven, that's what that term means.
According to God He can be in hell if He wants to or if He has to be. But He has no business in hell. He was there once. He had some business to do.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  How would you know what is in hell? Have you been there?
Through the revelations. God revealed what hell is through His prophets.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Do you have evidence for it's existence?
What does it have to do with your initial arguments?

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26-07-2015, 08:58 PM
RE: The concept of sin contradicts god’s alleged attributes
(26-07-2015 08:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This makes no sense, you said a sinner can be in the presence of god, but then they can't.
I can explain. No sinner can see God and live. Great light and radiation will kill him/her. But when God has to talk to a sinner once in a while He makes sure that there is a shield between Him and sinner. Shield that protects sinner.
But no sinner can see God without protection/veil/shield. No sinner can touch God. It is still separation from God(through the veil we(sinners)can see God)
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Please provide evidence for these mortals that saw him, was it Michelangelo?
what for? I only respond to your arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Yeah, that's exactly what it means.

Omnipotence

You don't get to redefine words at your convenience.
I only tell you what God means when He says that He is omnipotent not what somebody else means.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  WTF are you talking about? Again, this is not a problem for a god that is omnipotent.
When God says that He is omnipotent He means that He can be where He wants to be when He wants to be. You can't do this. Powerful God can. You can not be on the moon in 5 min. God can. If He want to visit moon He will be there exactly when He wants to be there. He is omnipotent. He also can be among us right now. No, not literally.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Feel free to quantify the intensity, frequency and type of radiation.
Perhaps you could actually provide evidence to back up that assertion?
I only respond to your initial arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  If he is omnipresent, then he is in hell and heaven, that's what that term means.
According to God He can be in hell if He wants to or if He has to be. But He has no business in hell. He was there once. He had some business to do.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  How would you know what is in hell? Have you been there?
Through the revelations. God revealed what hell is through His prophets.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Do you have evidence for it's existence?
What does it have to do with your initial arguments?

Wow you sure sound like an asshole.
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27-07-2015, 05:08 AM
RE: The concept of sin contradicts god’s alleged attributes
(26-07-2015 08:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This makes no sense, you said a sinner can be in the presence of god, but then they can't.
I can explain. No sinner can see God and live. Great light and radiation will kill him/her. But when God has to talk to a sinner once in a while He makes sure that there is a shield between Him and sinner. Shield that protects sinner.
But no sinner can see God without protection/veil/shield. No sinner can touch God. It is still separation from God(through the veil we(sinners)can see God)
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Please provide evidence for these mortals that saw him, was it Michelangelo?
what for? I only respond to your arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Yeah, that's exactly what it means.

Omnipotence

You don't get to redefine words at your convenience.
I only tell you what God means when He says that He is omnipotent not what somebody else means.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  WTF are you talking about? Again, this is not a problem for a god that is omnipotent.
When God says that He is omnipotent He means that He can be where He wants to be when He wants to be. You can't do this. Powerful God can. You can not be on the moon in 5 min. God can. If He want to visit moon He will be there exactly when He wants to be there. He is omnipotent. He also can be among us right now. No, not literally.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Feel free to quantify the intensity, frequency and type of radiation.
Perhaps you could actually provide evidence to back up that assertion?
I only respond to your initial arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  If he is omnipresent, then he is in hell and heaven, that's what that term means.
According to God He can be in hell if He wants to or if He has to be. But He has no business in hell. He was there once. He had some business to do.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  How would you know what is in hell? Have you been there?
Through the revelations. God revealed what hell is through His prophets.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Do you have evidence for it's existence?
What does it have to do with your initial arguments?

I see, so you just make shit up, without providing any reason for it. Gotcha.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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27-07-2015, 07:12 AM
RE: The concept of sin contradicts god’s alleged attributes
(26-07-2015 08:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This makes no sense, you said a sinner can be in the presence of god, but then they can't.
I can explain. No sinner can see God and live. Great light and radiation will kill him/her. But when God has to talk to a sinner once in a while He makes sure that there is a shield between Him and sinner. Shield that protects sinner.
But no sinner can see God without protection/veil/shield. No sinner can touch God. It is still separation from God(through the veil we(sinners)can see God)
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Please provide evidence for these mortals that saw him, was it Michelangelo?
what for? I only respond to your arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Yeah, that's exactly what it means.

Omnipotence

You don't get to redefine words at your convenience.
I only tell you what God means when He says that He is omnipotent not what somebody else means.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  WTF are you talking about? Again, this is not a problem for a god that is omnipotent.
When God says that He is omnipotent He means that He can be where He wants to be when He wants to be. You can't do this. Powerful God can. You can not be on the moon in 5 min. God can. If He want to visit moon He will be there exactly when He wants to be there. He is omnipotent. He also can be among us right now. No, not literally.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Feel free to quantify the intensity, frequency and type of radiation.
Perhaps you could actually provide evidence to back up that assertion?
I only respond to your initial arguments.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  If he is omnipresent, then he is in hell and heaven, that's what that term means.
According to God He can be in hell if He wants to or if He has to be. But He has no business in hell. He was there once. He had some business to do.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  How would you know what is in hell? Have you been there?
Through the revelations. God revealed what hell is through His prophets.
(26-07-2015 07:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Do you have evidence for it's existence?
What does it have to do with your initial arguments?

So your god goes places to conduct business, and evidently sometimes he's compelled to go places, as he goes too hell when "he has to be." Thus there's something more powerful than him in the universe, maybe he's creator, but not the master. He's not omnipresent, although he has magical travel powers that let him go places when he wants to. He's also got a shield, because evidently he's not powerful enough to dim down his radiation to appear to people directly.

So: not omnipotent, not omnipresent, and not the master of creation. He sounds like a cross between a stone age superhero and the great and powerful Oz.

Your choice to treat this dude as god. However, if you are going to use the threat of hell and god's displeasure to make nonbelievers repent, you would need to provide evidence of hell, god, etc., to be more convincing. As you haven't, my assumption is that you're more interested in keeping heaven and your shiny god to yourself, so you're deliberately half-assing your argument.

As a believer, do you think that's pleasing to your god, driving people farther away from him?
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27-07-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: The concept of sin contradicts god’s alleged attributes
(26-07-2015 05:49 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Sin is usually described as disobedience to what god says, it is also described as bad because it “separates us from god”.

This line of apologism immediately highlights several deficiencies of the Abrahamic god:

God can’t be in the presence of sin- not exactly omnipotent is he?

How could a god be separate from anything if it is omnipresent?

Why would this god need a separation from an instance of disobedience? How would separation do it any good if it is omniscient?

What purpose does hell serve if god is there (omnipresent) and fully aware (omniscient) of hell?

So the concept of sin refutes god’s alleged omni-attributes.

So if I’m buried in clothes made of polyester and cotton (a sin), then god will not be able to do anything to me after I die, I will render him powerless. Thumbsup

The problem I saw with the initial posts in regards to a possible response by theists is that the terms used are vague and easily mutable to mean whatever the apologist desires. In addition, what each separate denomination within a religion could mean by these terms could be different. I think there's a very good reason as science, technology, and philosophy advance, we see the concept of god become more and more vague.

It's only when a believer makes specific claims that we can hold their feet to the fire. For example, Alla said:
Quote:I can explain. No sinner can see God and live. Great light and radiation will kill him/her. But when God has to talk to a sinner once in a while He makes sure that there is a shield between Him and sinner. Shield that protects sinner.
But no sinner can see God without protection/veil/shield. No sinner can touch God. It is still separation from God(through the veil we(sinners)can see God)

Here we have a specific claim. No evidence is provided for such a claim, it's just stated as a bald assertion. One can point to the bible for support of such a claim, or against it. For instance:

Exodus 33:7
Quote:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

Then in the same chapter:
Quote:20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Now, this is neither here nor there considering myself, as well as most atheists I know, do not consider the bible as solid evidence for this type of claim (for good reason).

So, Alla speaks of powerful light and radiation that will kill a sinner. What kind of radiation? X-Rays, Gamma Rays? How does radiation only kill people that see it but spare them when they look away? How does radiation kill sinners? How does a physical thing (radiation) come from a non-corporeal entity? How does god make holy force fields in order to protect them? What is the mechanism of this force field? Basically, Alla falls back to "magic" at this point and somehow expects others to accept that as a valid answer.

"I take all knowledge to be my province."
-Sir Francis Bacon
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