The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
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08-08-2013, 03:10 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2013 03:16 PM by PoolBoyG.)
Thumbs Down The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchi...-as-a-fan/

Recently again, Richard Dawkins has made some incredibly dumb comments on "Muslims". And his fans are circling the wagons. He blames Islam for the reason why the certain countries are dumb - and not facts like invasions, occupations, dictatorial regimes having being propped up, conditional lending, sanctions, embargos, vestiges of previous decades of wars, occupations, sanctions, embargoes etc.

Then he attempted to make a weird backpedal, saying religion itself isn't bad, look at all the science and progress "Jews" or "Christians" have brought. It's just Islam that's evil.

Then another weird backpedaling saying that great scientific, legal, and economic progress was made in the Medieval Islamic world... because Medieval Islam was superior to modern Islam?

As everyone knows, the sub saharan Africa continent hasn't "produced" anything of worth due to tribal religions... right?

---

So, i'm reflecting on these so called New Atheist idols.

Sam Harris, similar Islamophobe, raging against Liberals for some sort of cultural Marxism, and is afraid that Liberals are trying to take his guns away.

Then you have Christopher Hitchens who advocated the US led sanctions, wars, and occupations that have killed hundreds of thousands because... they hate our freedoms? They weren't killing themselves fast enough? And of course his belief women are better suited to stay home. Rather sexists towards men too when children are concerned.

And there's Daniel Dennett which I have heard nothing whatsoever about. So I guess he's still clean, or smart enough to not publically make an ass of himself and take pride in it.

Now rational and empathetic people will take the good that these people have, comend them on it, as well as vocally renounce and recant the moronic things they say. These people aren't saints you know. They have biases, and ignorances like everyone else. Just because you can feel superior to some people on some opinions, does not mean you are superior to them in all opinions.

But if this trend continues, and escalates, what good they have to offer will be outweighed by their bad. Lets make sure that doesn't happen...

SO-

1. What are your thoughts and feelings on everything presented?
2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?
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08-08-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchi...-as-a-fan/

Recently again, Richard Dawkins has made some incredibly dumb comments on "Muslims". And his fans are circling the wagons. He blames Islam for the reason why the certain countries are dumb - and not facts like invasions, occupations, dictatorial regimes having being propped up, conditional lending, sanctions, embargos, vestiges of previous decades of wars, occupations, sanctions, embargoes etc.

Then he attempted to make a weird backpedal, saying religion itself isn't bad, look at all the science and progress "Jews" or "Christians" have brought. It's just Islam that's evil.

Then another weird backpedaling saying that great scientific, legal, and economic progress was made in the Medieval Islamic world... because Medieval Islam was superior to modern Islam?

As everyone knows, the sub saharan Africa continent hasn't "produced" anything of worth due to tribal religions... right?

---

So, i'm reflecting on these so called New Atheist idols.

Sam Harris, similar Islamophobe, raging against Liberals for some sort of cultural Marxism, and is afraid that Liberals are trying to take his guns away.

Then you have Christopher Hitchens who advocated the US led sanctions, wars, and occupations that have killed hundreds of thousands because... they hate our freedoms? They weren't killing themselves fast enough? And of course his belief women are better suited to stay home. Rather sexists towards men too when children are concerned.

And there's Daniel Dennett which I have heard nothing whatsoever about. So I guess he's still clean, or smart enough to not publically make an ass of himself and take pride in it.

Now rational and empathetic people will take the good that these people have, comend them on it, as well as vocally renounce and recant the moronic things they say. These people aren't saints you know. They have biases, and ignorances like everyone else. Just because you can feel superior to some people on some opinions, does not mean you are superior to them in all opinions.

But if this trend continues, and escalates, what good they have to offer will be outweighed by their bad. Lets make sure that doesn't happen...

SO-

1. What are your thoughts and feelings on everything presented?
2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?

I agree with both Harris and Dawkins, Islamophobia is a joke designed to shame white people for calling out muslims. Islam is a belief not a race therefore not racist to criticise.

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08-08-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins - Love them all. Great authors and great speakers who are knowledgeable and rational.
I couldn't ask for better spokesmen for rational and critical thinking.

I do however have some qualms with Harris when it comes to free will Smile
But that's for another time

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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08-08-2013, 04:41 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2013 04:50 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
The statements Dawkins made are not backpedaling at all. Because I don't want to get to far into this I'll address just one point. The comments of...
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  ...He blames Islam for the reason why the certain countries are dumb...
To be clear this is what you said he was saying, not what he said, but either way the point he makes is that the Islamic religion, in it's current incarnation, is stifling scientific progress, more so than Christianity or Judaism is currently.

Where you say he backpedals...
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  ...Then another weird backpedaling saying that great scientific, legal, and economic progress was made in the Medieval Islamic world... because Medieval Islam was superior to modern Islam?...
He is pointing out that there was a time in Islamic history in which they were open to scientific progress and in fact lead the Western World at that time. He is pointing out that currently Islam, as a whole (not individual Muslim people) is regressing progress.

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  ...It's just Islam that's evil...
And again here he didn't say this, you are saying that this is what he is saying. I actually don't have a problem with that though, other than that is not what he actually had said. But I guarantee he thinks all religions are equally "evil". He may find the current form of Islam a worse offender as far as scientific advancement is concerned, which he certainly would care a great deal about, but I promise he finds all religions equally "evil".

And here I'll leave you with one of my favorite talks Neil deGrasse Tyson made on this very subject of scientific advancement, which also includes Islam and its’ contributions to and away from it and a historical perspective on Islam's past in regards to science.



...
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08-08-2013, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2013 08:29 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?

Oh, and to respond to this, I would say no one should ever be considered an "idol". I don't know if others would disagree with me, but to me it's not the people who matter, it's what they have to say. I may very much respect what those people say, and there for respect them immensely. But never idolize the person.

Just my opinion.

...
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08-08-2013, 05:12 PM
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchi...-as-a-fan/

Recently again, Richard Dawkins has made some incredibly dumb comments on "Muslims". And his fans are circling the wagons. He blames Islam for the reason why the certain countries are dumb - and not facts like invasions, occupations, dictatorial regimes having being propped up, conditional lending, sanctions, embargos, vestiges of previous decades of wars, occupations, sanctions, embargoes etc.

Then he attempted to make a weird backpedal, saying religion itself isn't bad, look at all the science and progress "Jews" or "Christians" have brought. It's just Islam that's evil.

Then another weird backpedaling saying that great scientific, legal, and economic progress was made in the Medieval Islamic world... because Medieval Islam was superior to modern Islam?

As everyone knows, the sub saharan Africa continent hasn't "produced" anything of worth due to tribal religions... right?

---

So, i'm reflecting on these so called New Atheist idols.

Sam Harris, similar Islamophobe, raging against Liberals for some sort of cultural Marxism, and is afraid that Liberals are trying to take his guns away.

Then you have Christopher Hitchens who advocated the US led sanctions, wars, and occupations that have killed hundreds of thousands because... they hate our freedoms? They weren't killing themselves fast enough? And of course his belief women are better suited to stay home. Rather sexists towards men too when children are concerned.

And there's Daniel Dennett which I have heard nothing whatsoever about. So I guess he's still clean, or smart enough to not publically make an ass of himself and take pride in it.

Now rational and empathetic people will take the good that these people have, comend them on it, as well as vocally renounce and recant the moronic things they say. These people aren't saints you know. They have biases, and ignorances like everyone else. Just because you can feel superior to some people on some opinions, does not mean you are superior to them in all opinions.

But if this trend continues, and escalates, what good they have to offer will be outweighed by their bad. Lets make sure that doesn't happen...

SO-

1. What are your thoughts and feelings on everything presented?
2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?

You have a poor understanding of what back-pedaling means. I would say more, but I don't wanna plagiarize Raptor Jesus.

“One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.”

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08-08-2013, 05:37 PM
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
(08-08-2013 04:48 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?

Oh, and to respond to this, I would say no one should ever be considered an "idol". I don't know if others would disagree with me, but to me it's not the people who matters, it's what they have to say. I may very much respect what those people say, and there for respect them immensely. But never idolize the person.

Archetype might be a better word choice.

As for me I prefer the style of Seth or wildwoodclaire1 to some of the rock star atheists out there.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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08-08-2013, 05:45 PM
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
(08-08-2013 04:48 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?

Oh, and to respond to this, I would say no one should ever be considered an "idol". I don't know if others would disagree with me, but to me it's not the people who matters, it's what they have to say. I may very much respect what those people say, and there for respect them immensely. But never idolize the person.

Just my opinion.

I would agree. Much of the work these men have done had a major impact on my deconversion process. I won't say that I agree with every ideal that they hold (except maybe Dennett, don't know that I've ever heard him say something disagreeable), but I won't denigrate them for having an opinion that I may not like. They're just dudes, after all.

I've never considered them to be anything more than intelligent and well spoken, never idols or anything close. Hell, I haven't even read a fraction of the works that they've put out. I'm an atheist already, I gots other learnins to get to.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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08-08-2013, 05:46 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2013 06:54 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchi...-as-a-fan/

Recently again, Richard Dawkins has made some incredibly dumb comments on "Muslims". And his fans are circling the wagons. He blames Islam for the reason why the certain countries are dumb - and not facts like invasions, occupations, dictatorial regimes having being propped up, conditional lending, sanctions, embargos, vestiges of previous decades of wars, occupations, sanctions, embargoes etc.

Then he attempted to make a weird backpedal, saying religion itself isn't bad, look at all the science and progress "Jews" or "Christians" have brought. It's just Islam that's evil.

Then another weird backpedaling saying that great scientific, legal, and economic progress was made in the Medieval Islamic world... because Medieval Islam was superior to modern Islam?

As everyone knows, the sub saharan Africa continent hasn't "produced" anything of worth due to tribal religions... right?

---

So, i'm reflecting on these so called New Atheist idols.

Sam Harris, similar Islamophobe, raging against Liberals for some sort of cultural Marxism, and is afraid that Liberals are trying to take his guns away.

Then you have Christopher Hitchens who advocated the US led sanctions, wars, and occupations that have killed hundreds of thousands because... they hate our freedoms? They weren't killing themselves fast enough? And of course his belief women are better suited to stay home. Rather sexists towards men too when children are concerned.

And there's Daniel Dennett which I have heard nothing whatsoever about. So I guess he's still clean, or smart enough to not publically make an ass of himself and take pride in it.

Now rational and empathetic people will take the good that these people have, comend them on it, as well as vocally renounce and recant the moronic things they say. These people aren't saints you know. They have biases, and ignorances like everyone else. Just because you can feel superior to some people on some opinions, does not mean you are superior to them in all opinions.

But if this trend continues, and escalates, what good they have to offer will be outweighed by their bad. Lets make sure that doesn't happen...

SO-

1. What are your thoughts and feelings on everything presented?
2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?


Islam does not "exist" somewhere in a never-never land, APART (somehow) from Muslims. The fact is Medieval Arabian / Islamic culture WAS more advanced than European society. Algebra, (for example) came to the European universities up from North Africa to Spain.

I don't see what the who-ha is all about. Conservative fundamentalist Islam has had a profoundly repressive, dumbing-down on previously advanced cultures.

I don't think Dawkins has a thing to apologize for.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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08-08-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: The continuing degeneration of "NEW ATHEISMS" idols
(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Recently again, Richard Dawkins has made some incredibly dumb comments on "Muslims". And his fans are circling the wagons. He blames Islam for the reason why the certain countries are dumb - and not facts like invasions, occupations, dictatorial regimes having being propped up, conditional lending, sanctions, embargos, vestiges of previous decades of wars, occupations, sanctions, embargoes etc.

Of course it's not the only factor. But y'know, I'm pretty sure religious extremism doesn't make anything better. Which countries tend to have the most religious extremism? The Westboro Baptists wish they had the pull the Salafists do...

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Then he attempted to make a weird backpedal, saying religion itself isn't bad, look at all the science and progress "Jews" or "Christians" have brought. It's just Islam that's evil.

Then another weird backpedaling saying that great scientific, legal, and economic progress was made in the Medieval Islamic world... because Medieval Islam was superior to modern Islam?

Remember that time the Danes were in the streets demanding blood because some small-time newspaper in Port Said printed cartoons depicting Martin Luther?

Yeah, me neither.

Like it or not there's one world religion today whose extremists - even if not any more numerous (a mighty if) - are a hell of a lot more visible.

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  As everyone knows, the sub saharan Africa continent hasn't "produced" anything of worth due to tribal religions... right?

Straw man says what?

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Sam Harris, similar Islamophobe, raging against Liberals for some sort of cultural Marxism, and is afraid that Liberals are trying to take his guns away.

I don't know much about Harris, but anyone who says 'cultural Marxist' with a straight face is eating cat poop three meals a day. Got a cite on that?

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Then you have Christopher Hitchens who advocated the US led sanctions, wars, and occupations that have killed hundreds of thousands because... they hate our freedoms? They weren't killing themselves fast enough? And of course his belief women are better suited to stay home. Rather sexists towards men too when children are concerned.

If you're alluding to Iraq, he was plenty open a few years later on how wrong he was. So there's that.

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  And there's Daniel Dennett which I have heard nothing whatsoever about. So I guess he's still clean, or smart enough to not publically make an ass of himself and take pride in it.

So in naming three people to demonstrate how awful this group of people is, the third name you came up with is ... a nice guy?

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Now rational and empathetic people will take the good that these people have, commend them on it, as well as vocally renounce and recant the moronic things they say. These people aren't saints you know. They have biases, and ignorances like everyone else. Just because you can feel superior to some people on some opinions, does not mean you are superior to them in all opinions.

Yeah, I'm... pretty sure that's exactly what happens. We're not the ones with saints, last time I checked. Calling out religion for being full of shit earns one some points, but it has no bearing on whether one is not also full of shit also. Not that I'd say they are, but you're absolutely free to think so.

(08-08-2013 03:10 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  But if this trend continues, and escalates, what good they have to offer will be outweighed by their bad. Lets make sure that doesn't happen...

SO-

1. What are your thoughts and feelings on everything presented?
2. Who do you see as worthy idols - someone to learn and emulate - when it comes to reasoned and empathetic thinking and lifestyles?

You seem a bit worked up about this, which may just be the usual failure of text to convey tone in strangers. But the gist seems to be 'call people on their crap, regardless of what else they've said'. A perfectly reasonable position! And something I'd say does happen quite often. I wonder why that perception so clearly differs?

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