The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:55 AM)TheStraightener Wrote:  Yeah I live in the UK and i don't see any converts to Islam. I can see immagrants... But I see no conversions.

hmm, not sure where you live, but in Manchester it is the fastest growing religion. They currently have about 5000 converts per year in the UK. Here is some stats

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oc...-prejudice
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27-08-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:33 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Can someone give me the gist of what this new guys believes about homosexuality?

He's agin it.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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27-08-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:57 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Yet another example of why it is not my favorite tactic of wading into comic books.

Now see if you can spot the pattern.

Allah exists<=the Koran says so<=Therefor Allah is the one true god.
Yahweh exists<=the Torah Talmud and OT say so,<=Therefor Yahweh is the one true god.
Frank exists<=the book of Frank says so<=Therefor Frank is the one true god.

The term for that is circular reasoning. If others using that circular reasoning to quote their books to prove other gods, what makes you think that same argument you use now will work on us?

Not sure what you are on about. I haven't tried to prove the existence of God. I wouldn't bother here to be honest. All I have done is answer questions about the Bible. Nothing circular. I think atheists like to leap on an idea and ride it because others do. Its a bit self congratulatory and fruitless.
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27-08-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:33 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Can someone give me the gist of what this new guys believes about homosexuality?

Post 60 in this thread Thumbsup


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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27-08-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:18 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Phil, it seems that all you do is not answer anything just tell me that I have nailed my own coffin and burnt my own stake. Those are not good arguments. You may have noticed that I wasn't arguing for utilitarianism, i was continuing to attempt to show that atheism, like the king, has no clothes. You have no bases for your judgments of what is right and wrong.

I do have basis for my judgements of "right" and "wrong".

Here's something you might not know about humans at rational levels of psychological development (Formal operational, in Jean Piaget's model).

People at rational levels of psychological development can ethically discern, that means - they can generate ethical judgement all by themselves as the situation calls for it.

No need for a morality rule book. No need for a bible. Their mind can determine what's ethical simply by looking at the facts and doing a bit of reflection on the situation.

People at earlier pre-rational levels of development require moral guidence, rational thinkers don't though.

It's why religion is dying out. As culture evolves, more and more people are reaching rational levels of development - as soon as they do, they find whatever religious morality system they are inside to be irrelevant.

For the church in the developed world, it really is evolve or die out time. You guys need to come up with a brand new product, pronto!

Phil

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27-08-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:41 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Actually the church is very supportive of those who have abortions. You don't have to support the killing of the unborn in order to support those who suffer the tragedy of going through with such a thing.

So secondly your basis for saying everyone should be equal is that you think so. Well there are large parts of the world doesn't think so. That's kind of a problem for your atheism. I think your missing the elephant in the room.

On the one hand you want to destroy and cut down christianity that has offered objective morality. Objective here meaning outside of us. You are then left with corporate and social evolutionary subjective morality. But having removed objectivity you have no grounds to make and force other nations to agree with you, when they think differently. You have nothing to appeal to. You stand on quicksand.

Tell me plainly, why are you infallibly right about homosexuality and Russia and Islamic States completely wrong? Its rhetorical, as you have no answer.

You know, I like you. I hope attacks won't make you react like a cornered animal, you need a thick skin here.

People here are as different as night and day, we come from all walks of life, all age groups, all corners of the world, various cultures and ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientation and what have you. There is no common denominator at all, with the exception that none of us believe in any gods.

What we also have in common is a moral compass. Just go and read our support section and then tell me we have no moral compass. A moral compass is part of evolution, it's not needed to invent one, we all have it already unless something went wrong genetically with an individual. We have been living in groups since ever as far as I know. Lots of time to evolve into a being with a social consciousness. If you study the animal world, you will find the same in herd, flock and pack animals etc. Strict rules of conduct that serve to protect the group.

So, this is innate in us, as well as provided by laws. Those individuals who break the unwritten rules are taken care of through the written law.

Why would we need a third group of rules that says the exact same as the other two sets?

On the moral compass. Your moral compass on womens rights and homosexuality is pointing in the opposite direction to the moral compass of Russia and Islamic nations and people. Whose moral compass is right, and how do you know?
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27-08-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:37 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:57 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Yet another example of why it is not my favorite tactic of wading into comic books.

Now see if you can spot the pattern.

Allah exists<=the Koran says so<=Therefor Allah is the one true god.
Yahweh exists<=the Torah Talmud and OT say so,<=Therefor Yahweh is the one true god.
Frank exists<=the book of Frank says so<=Therefor Frank is the one true god.

The term for that is circular reasoning. If others using that circular reasoning to quote their books to prove other gods, what makes you think that same argument you use now will work on us?

Not sure what you are on about. I haven't tried to prove the existence of God. I wouldn't bother here to be honest. All I have done is answer questions about the Bible. Nothing circular. I think atheists like to leap on an idea and ride it because others do. Its a bit self congratulatory and fruitless.

Don't hand me that crap. This is not our first rodeo. You came in here with the idea that you had this awesome invention and if you "just" expose us to it we would magically fold and go "wow, that is neat".

If you are not here to provide evidence for your god then you are wasting our time and yours. Otherwise be willing to consider that you are the one who is wrong and we are here to explain to you why you are wrong.

I don't lie about what I want for you(humanity in general). I think humanity can do way better than believing in a fictional sky hero based on an ancient comic book. You and everyone else with other god claims.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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27-08-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 07:48 AM)DunkleSeele Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.
Hi, welcome to the forum.

Quote:I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day.

That depends on what you mean by "winning the day". Most atheists don't care about people's beliefs, as long as they are kept private. What we have a problem with is the undue interference of religion in the society; for example, demonisation of gays and other categories, opposition to women's right to choose what to do with their bodies, etc.

Quote:Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that.
Argumentum ad populum; invalid.

Quote:Thats why in the US Atheists are the most mistrusted people in society. Thats not going to change. Again, not a christian point, just a point.
No, atheists are distrusted because of the continuos smearing campaigns and misrepresentation religious fundies direct at us.

Quote:However, atheists main point of attack has been on christianity.

Only partially true. Atheists are generally against religion in general because of the nefarious influence these beliefs have had and still have on society. The fact that Christi(ns)anity is the dominant religion in the West accounts for the fact that we point out its horrors more often than other religions.

Quote:I realise that in the heat of debate silly things are said, christians are demonised, described as violent because of the OT, etc etc.
These aren't silly things, they are thruths. Christi(ns)anity is, just like the other Abrahamic religions, inherently violent. And so are many of its followers.

Quote:And this has had an effect on society, you have had an impact. I think thats been seen in gay marriage etc.
Does it hurt? Good.

Quote:Here is the rub. People are not turning to atheism, they never will.

Argumentum ad populum again?

Quote:Instead Islam is filling the void. I predict that within 20 years the UK will be an Islamic state. I don't know about the US.

No it won't, as long as secular forces will have a voice. Note: secular, not necessarily atheist.

Quote:If you want to know what that will look like, take a look at the Calaphate.

We already know what religious states look like, thank you very much.

Quote:This is the cost of atheism. You are trading Christianity for Islam.
I see. You're all hurt because secularism has eroded some of the power your religion had and now you resort to vague threaths of doom. Sounds a lot like the bullshit stories about hell...

Quote:Of course Christianity will continue and perhaps even thrive. Historically, it is when we are marginalised, and persecuted that the church is refined, becomes what it was meant to be, and grows.

Oh yeah, the usual martyrdom manure all religious are so proud of...

Quote:But what will society look like? Your attacks on Islam them will not be met with the same non-violent response that you have received from christians. This is the cost of atheism.
Then we will fight, exactly as we fought against the violence of Christi(ns)anity.

This is just so sill its beyond words and reason. Hatred on fire I think. Sorry, I won't respond to your points.
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27-08-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
Christianman, what does moral mean to you?
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27-08-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:40 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  You know, I like you. I hope attacks won't make you react like a cornered animal, you need a thick skin here.

People here are as different as night and day, we come from all walks of life, all age groups, all corners of the world, various cultures and ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientation and what have you. There is no common denominator at all, with the exception that none of us believe in any gods.

What we also have in common is a moral compass. Just go and read our support section and then tell me we have no moral compass. A moral compass is part of evolution, it's not needed to invent one, we all have it already unless something went wrong genetically with an individual. We have been living in groups since ever as far as I know. Lots of time to evolve into a being with a social consciousness. If you study the animal world, you will find the same in herd, flock and pack animals etc. Strict rules of conduct that serve to protect the group.

So, this is innate in us, as well as provided by laws. Those individuals who break the unwritten rules are taken care of through the written law.

Why would we need a third group of rules that says the exact same as the other two sets?

On the moral compass. Your moral compass on womens rights and homosexuality is pointing in the opposite direction to the moral compass of Russia and Islamic nations and people. Whose moral compass is right, and how do you know?

The natural moral compass based on empathy is right. Many moral guidelines made up by humans are not based on empathy, especially religious ones.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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