The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:54 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 10:50 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  This will be fun to watch ...

Popcorn

Off to look for my foam finger. What are our team colors again?

Blood red against a stone grey background.
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27-08-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:15 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:58 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Ask an Islamic woman if she is suffering and she will say no. Islamic women were on the streets of London calling British women whores for how they dress etc. Your argument doesn't hold.

Likewise, if you have a gay son, and you ask your gay son if he is gay, he will tell you he is not. He might even say homophobic things to prove it.

And then perhaps 5 years later, you'l be surprised when he commits suicide "for no reason".

Beaten wives go back to their husbands again and again and actually defend them in court.

People tend to argue in defence of their social conditioning, however problematic that conditioning is.

Quote:And society sometimes has to do a trade off of suffering, the good of the many outweighing the good of the few. Its actually an atheistic idea called Utilitarianism.

Wow, arguing for sexism! Now there's a position you don't often encounter in the developed world these days.

Having nailed me to a cross, seems to me you are now burning yourself at the stake?

Phil

Phil, I missed the top half of your post. Just in case you think being a christian is homophobic I have good friends who are gay. I had a gay man live with us for a long time while he was ill. It doesn't mean I have to agree that a gay lifestyle is morally right. Again, tolerance is being able to disagree without it being a deal breaker. I am sure if we met we would get on really well.

I also know chrisitans inside the church who struggle with same sex attraction but choose not to live in a gay lifestyle. They are open, accepted and enjoy the loving chrisitan community where they are part of the family, live everyone else.

But, biblically a gay lifestyle is immoral, and Christ offers a better way.
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27-08-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:00 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's "you're missing", not your. Hmm, Education much ?
Morality does not come from the gods. Another unsupported assertion. YOU morality is no more "objective" than anyone else's, and has CHANGED along with the morality of the cultures which produced it, and in which is exists.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rah?page=2
Post 19.
The opinions of some REAL scholars on the subject. None of which you can refute.

Bucky, diversion to my grammar will not hold as a valid answer to my question, to which of course you have no valid answer.

We have had a completed Bible for 2000 years now, unchanged. Why do you say we do not have a set moral standard? Do not murder, do no lie, do not steel, ring any bells? My stance here on homosexuality is based on the Bible, so I have no clue what you are on about.

Attempted evasion of MY request for facts to support your OP will not stand. You are the one attempting "diversion" here.

What question are you asking for ? Your "morality" has changed immensly. Do you REALLY need me to go through the list of things in the OT you would never consider moral now ? Like killing your disobedient children ?

You also have to PROVE that the morality in the Bible was original TO the Bible and not just taken from the cultue which produced it. You can't do that. Everything IN the Bible is taken from Ancuient Near Eastern culture, and NOT ONE thing originated with any god. You cannot demonstrate anything unique, or that it did. I have already posted in the link to the question of homosexuality how that worked, and you have not had one thing to say about it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-08-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:13 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  But, biblically a gay lifestyle is immoral, and Christ offers a better way.

Like populating the earth via incest. Drinking Beverage

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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27-08-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:54 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:40 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  We don't care what part of that book you quote. Muslims quote the Koran and Jews quote their books and all three come from the same line. Prior to any of them existing the Hebrews stole their characters from the Canaanite polytheism.

It never occurs to believers of any of the three that it is all merely in their heads and ancient books of myth have nothing to do with modern knowledge.

Brian, I dont understand your response here. I am asked questions about what the Bible says, which I answer, and you respond by saying that "we don't care what part of that book you quote" If you don't want answers then perhaps don't ask questions?

Well, he didn't ask any questions about the Bible. Some others did. You have to be aware that there are different kinds of people here. Some are atheists who have no interest at all in the Bible -- it's just another work of fiction, and in their opinion, a badly-written one. Others (like Bucky Ball) are Biblical scholars who probably know as much or more about the Bible as you do, and are quite willing to discuss it -- but they don't accept it as the "Word of God". Others, like kingschosen, are actually theists who "believe in" the Bible (but may interpret it differently than you do). I'm willing to discuss it on its own terms, even though I'm an atheist. I will not be as confrontational as Bucky Ball (nor as knowledgeable), but like him, I don't accept it as the Word of God. I do find it an interesting book, and worthy of discussion.

And then there are some who will just want to beat on you because you're a theist. You can always just ignore those people.
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27-08-2014, 11:18 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:23 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 10:20 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  What would it prove to you if there was? Would you become a christian?

No - because I don't believe the teachings of Jesus to be moral. But I would at least more satisfied as to the rationale of the choice to become one.

Two things then:

1. Can you give me examples of the teachings of Jesus that are immoral?

2. On what basis do you say they are immoral?
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27-08-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:13 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  But, biblically a gay lifestyle is immoral, and Christ offers a better way.


Don't be an idiot. There was no such thing as a "gay" lifestyle, or "gay" anything then. Sexual orientation was unknown until the late 19th century, when the SCIENCE of Psychology discovered and named it. All men were assumed to be straight, and all women straight, in Biblical times. I see you really have no clue what you are talking about, historically, Biblically, or scientifically.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-08-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 10:13 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Bucky

A chap called Jeremy Bentham created what we now know as utilitarianism and he was a staunch atheist. Google it. Its common knowledge. No idea what your own about in terms of critical thinking.

Just as I thought.
No facts.

Doesn't matter who first named what he called Utilitarianism, or what he believed or didn't believe. The concept has been around for eons. YOU used a Utiltarian argument for YOUR religion. YOU therefore espouse the concept.

So.
You cannot in any way support your OP.

That's what I figured. You just repeated a personal unsupported opinion, and expected others would be stupid enough to buy it.
Just like your religion, and it's proponents do.


I didn't use Utilitarianism to support my religion. I playing devil's advocate to show that atheism doesn't work.
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27-08-2014, 11:24 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:22 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 10:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Just as I thought.
No facts.

Doesn't matter who first named what he called Utilitarianism, or what he believed or didn't believe. The concept has been around for eons. YOU used a Utiltarian argument for YOUR religion. YOU therefore espouse the concept.

So.
You cannot in any way support your OP.

That's what I figured. You just repeated a personal unsupported opinion, and expected others would be stupid enough to buy it.
Just like your religion, and it's proponents do.


I didn't use Utilitarianism to support my religion. I playing devil's advocate to show that atheism doesn't work.

Bullshit.
Works fine for me, and countless others. YOU said morality comes from religion, and that's a good thing. THAT IS "utilitarian", if that is true. Please grow a brain, soon.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-08-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:37 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 10:18 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Phil, it seems that all you do is not answer anything just tell me that I have nailed my own coffin and burnt my own stake. Those are not good arguments. You may have noticed that I wasn't arguing for utilitarianism, i was continuing to attempt to show that atheism, like the king, has no clothes. You have no bases for your judgments of what is right and wrong.

I do have basis for my judgements of "right" and "wrong".

Here's something you might not know about humans at rational levels of psychological development (Formal operational, in Jean Piaget's model).

People at rational levels of psychological development can ethically discern, that means - they can generate ethical judgement all by themselves as the situation calls for it.

No need for a morality rule book. No need for a bible. Their mind can determine what's ethical simply by looking at the facts and doing a bit of reflection on the situation.

People at earlier pre-rational levels of development require moral guidence, rational thinkers don't though.

It's why religion is dying out. As culture evolves, more and more people are reaching rational levels of development - as soon as they do, they find whatever religious morality system they are inside to be irrelevant.

For the church in the developed world, it really is evolve or die out time. You guys need to come up with a brand new product, pronto!

Phil

[Image: piaget2.gif]

So Phil, your argument to Russia (including atheists) and to Islam is that you are right about homosexulaity because your smarter than they are? I seem to recall Hitler thinking a similar thing. I find it hard to believe that you are giving that as a serious answer.
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