The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:47 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:38 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ;

Tells slaves to accept their place as slaves.

That one is cheating, because Jesus didn't say it -- Paul did. I don't recall Jesus saying anything in support of slavery.

However, I would cite Jesus's teaching about Hell. The very concept of Hell is immoral -- infinite punishment for finite crimes. Even for someone like Hitler, who everyone agrees was evil, Hell would be excessive. But to eternally torture someone simply because he/she had "wrong" beliefs, or worshipped God in the "wrong" way -- that is not only immoral, it's disgustingly so.
Yep - I accept that error - the other 3 examples I used are however from Christ as well as his teaching on hell that you rightly quote.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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27-08-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:08 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:04 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I'm an atheist, but I still fear the death of god, for a valueless society will start to look everywhere for values, and I worry about what these values might be.

I understand and appreciate your position. I think some people produce more heat than light, and in the frenzy of a cause fail to see clearly.

Consider

But... People that produce more heat would also produce more light...

We're talking about physics, right?
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27-08-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
ChristianMan:

Regarding biblical morality, it's interesting but I do need some advice from you regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord ( Lev 1:9 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness ( Lev 15:19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination ( Lev 11:10 ), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27 . How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? ( Lev 24:10-16 ) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? ( Lev. 20:14 )

(copied from the internet)
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27-08-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:47 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:38 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ;

Tells slaves to accept their place as slaves.

That one is cheating, because Jesus didn't say it -- Paul did. I don't recall Jesus saying anything in support of slavery.

However, I would cite Jesus's teaching about Hell. The very concept of Hell is immoral -- infinite punishment for finite crimes. Even for someone like Hitler, who everyone agrees was evil, Hell would be excessive. But to eternally torture someone simply because he/she had "wrong" beliefs, or worshipped God in the "wrong" way -- that is not only immoral, it's disgustingly so.

Technically, everything written in the bible is by some person other than Jesus. So if Paul said it and therefore it cannot be attributed to Jesus, then that must apply to the entire book. Drinking Beverage

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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27-08-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:49 AM)phil.a Wrote:  ChristianMan:

Regarding biblical morality, it's interesting but I do need some advice from you regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord ( Lev 1:9 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness ( Lev 15:19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination ( Lev 11:10 ), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27 . How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? ( Lev 24:10-16 ) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? ( Lev. 20:14 )

(copied from the internet)


I believe this is on the West Wing.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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27-08-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:45 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:28 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  So Phil, your argument to Russia (including atheists) and to Islam is that you are right about homosexulaity because your smarter than they are? I seem to recall Hitler thinking a similar thing. I find it hard to believe that you are giving that as a serious answer.


If I am correct, you will find it impossible to believe.

If you are at pre-rational levels of moral development (as I think you are), the possibility of ethical discernment will be fundamentally out of your sight.

I'm not going to debate this with you, because of your level of moral development it would result in a circular argument.

Phil

Love that Phil, its very funny. Good luck with the Russians and the Muslims.
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27-08-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:40 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  You know, I like you. I hope attacks won't make you react like a cornered animal, you need a thick skin here.

People here are as different as night and day, we come from all walks of life, all age groups, all corners of the world, various cultures and ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientation and what have you. There is no common denominator at all, with the exception that none of us believe in any gods.

What we also have in common is a moral compass. Just go and read our support section and then tell me we have no moral compass. A moral compass is part of evolution, it's not needed to invent one, we all have it already unless something went wrong genetically with an individual. We have been living in groups since ever as far as I know. Lots of time to evolve into a being with a social consciousness. If you study the animal world, you will find the same in herd, flock and pack animals etc. Strict rules of conduct that serve to protect the group.

So, this is innate in us, as well as provided by laws. Those individuals who break the unwritten rules are taken care of through the written law.

Why would we need a third group of rules that says the exact same as the other two sets?

On the moral compass. Your moral compass on womens rights and homosexuality is pointing in the opposite direction to the moral compass of Russia and Islamic nations and people. Whose moral compass is right, and how do you know?

That would be our innate, evolved moral compass. The one we all have prior to indoctrination.

For instance, some version of the Golden Rule is universal among humans (barring psychopaths and sociopaths). This is clearly consistent with equal rights for all.

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27-08-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:50 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:49 AM)phil.a Wrote:  ChristianMan:

Regarding biblical morality, it's interesting but I do need some advice from you regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord ( Lev 1:9 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness ( Lev 15:19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination ( Lev 11:10 ), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27 . How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? ( Lev 24:10-16 ) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? ( Lev. 20:14 )

(copied from the internet)


I believe this is on the West Wing.

I couldn't find the original to this post. But my advice would be to leave Judaism and become a Christian then it won't be an issue for you.
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27-08-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 10:40 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  On the moral compass. Your moral compass on womens rights and homosexuality is pointing in the opposite direction to the moral compass of Russia and Islamic nations and people. Whose moral compass is right, and how do you know?

That would be our innate, evolved moral compass. The one we all have prior to indoctrination.

For instance, some version of the Golden Rule is universal among humans (barring psychopaths and sociopaths). This is clearly consistent with equal rights for all.

Well the problem that you have is that your innate moral compass points in a completely different direction to large sections of the world's innate moral compass. How do you decide whose is right?
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27-08-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 10:44 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  This is just so sill its beyond words and reason. Hatred on fire I think. Sorry, I won't respond to your points.

You need a thicker skin, dude. Drinking Beverage

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