The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 07:40 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.

I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day. Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that. Thats why in the US Atheists are the most mistrusted people in society. Thats not going to change. Again, not a christian point, just a point.

However, atheists main point of attack has been on christianity. I realise that in the heat of debate silly things are said, christians are demonised, described as violent because of the OT, etc etc. And this has had an effect on society, you have had an impact. I think thats been seen in gay marriage etc.

Here is the rub. People are not turning to atheism, they never will. Instead Islam is filling the void. I predict that within 20 years the UK will be an Islamic state. I don't know about the US. If you want to know what that will look like, take a look at the Calaphate. This is the cost of atheism. You are trading Christianity for Islam.

Of course Christianity will continue and perhaps even thrive. Historically, it is when we are marginalised, and persecuted that the church is refined, becomes what it was meant to be, and grows. But what will society look like? Your attacks on Islam them will not be met with the same non-violent response that you have received from christians. This is the cost of atheism.

We don't care if you are not interested in "bun fights". You chose to come here no one stuck a gun to your head. We won't eat your babies or barbecue your kittens. Instead of worrying about being offended, maybe you should worry about providing evidence. But your claims by themselves do not constitute us sugar coating what we thing of it. If you cannot stand the boxing ring then don't jump in.

You are not our first Christian and you are not the only religion we debate. You do not have to go away, but you have no right to dictate to us on a website you do not own. Your religion, nor the god you claim, are the center of the universe on a planet of 7 billion. We treat you the same way we treat Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and Mormons and even each other when we think the other got it wrong.

Grow up and get a thick skin, no one is going to murder you just because we think you are full of shit.

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27-08-2014, 07:44 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
What's the cost of being a prat?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-08-2014, 07:45 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
Wow. The OP is chock full of false assumptions, projection, and misconceptions. I'll just address one underlying theme for now.

Secularism, not "atheism", is the key to preventing any religion from ruling a nation.
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27-08-2014, 07:45 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
Maybe the thread should be called the The cost of Christianity. If Islam is growing in the UK then it's better that it's opposed by widespread atheism with facts and science on their side rather than another faith.
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27-08-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
Can't we just let the Christians and Muslims fight each other to decide who's right and then have the winner present their argument? Wink


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27-08-2014, 07:48 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
Thanks for the respectful interaction chaps, always a pleasure.
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27-08-2014, 07:48 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.
Hi, welcome to the forum.

Quote:I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day.

That depends on what you mean by "winning the day". Most atheists don't care about people's beliefs, as long as they are kept private. What we have a problem with is the undue interference of religion in the society; for example, demonisation of gays and other categories, opposition to women's right to choose what to do with their bodies, etc.

Quote:Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that.
Argumentum ad populum; invalid.

Quote:Thats why in the US Atheists are the most mistrusted people in society. Thats not going to change. Again, not a christian point, just a point.
No, atheists are distrusted because of the continuos smearing campaigns and misrepresentation religious fundies direct at us.

Quote:However, atheists main point of attack has been on christianity.

Only partially true. Atheists are generally against religion in general because of the nefarious influence these beliefs have had and still have on society. The fact that Christi(ns)anity is the dominant religion in the West accounts for the fact that we point out its horrors more often than other religions.

Quote:I realise that in the heat of debate silly things are said, christians are demonised, described as violent because of the OT, etc etc.
These aren't silly things, they are thruths. Christi(ns)anity is, just like the other Abrahamic religions, inherently violent. And so are many of its followers.

Quote:And this has had an effect on society, you have had an impact. I think thats been seen in gay marriage etc.
Does it hurt? Good.

Quote:Here is the rub. People are not turning to atheism, they never will.

Argumentum ad populum again?

Quote:Instead Islam is filling the void. I predict that within 20 years the UK will be an Islamic state. I don't know about the US.

No it won't, as long as secular forces will have a voice. Note: secular, not necessarily atheist.

Quote:If you want to know what that will look like, take a look at the Calaphate.

We already know what religious states look like, thank you very much.

Quote:This is the cost of atheism. You are trading Christianity for Islam.
I see. You're all hurt because secularism has eroded some of the power your religion had and now you resort to vague threaths of doom. Sounds a lot like the bullshit stories about hell...

Quote:Of course Christianity will continue and perhaps even thrive. Historically, it is when we are marginalised, and persecuted that the church is refined, becomes what it was meant to be, and grows.

Oh yeah, the usual martyrdom manure all religious are so proud of...

Quote:But what will society look like? Your attacks on Islam them will not be met with the same non-violent response that you have received from christians. This is the cost of atheism.
Then we will fight, exactly as we fought against the violence of Christi(ns)anity.
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27-08-2014, 07:53 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

What a great opening line for a bun fight! Already I see a telling lack of consistency :-)


Quote:I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.

I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day.

Nice theory, what facts back up your theory? Even without seeing your facts, I refute your theory with the facts of the following graph plotting the inexorable death of religion in the UK

Enjoy!

Phil

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27-08-2014, 07:55 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
First off, I think falling Church attendance disproves that religion is needed. Christianity is for all practical purposes dead in most of the Western world. Inn 1883 Nietzsche wrote "Gott ist tot", or in English "God is Dead". This was not a statement about the state of Christianity at the time so much as it was a prophecy. Nietzsche saw that in European civilization science had begun to kill god. Much of the bible has been disproven, and with the death of Christianity comes the death of the Western values based in Christianity. These values, according to Nietzsche, are the values of the slave. Before this came the values of the master, as seen in ancient Greece and Rome. The death of Christian values means the start of nihilism, the beginning of nothingness. A complete lack of values. Nietzsche believed an eugenically created ubermensch (overman) was needed to form new values for godless Western society that transcended those of the master and slave.

Nietzsche's prophetic writings are surprisingly accurate. The West is becoming godless, and by extension; losing its values. This can be seen in the current clash between Moslem and Western society, the worldwide Jihad being waged. The god of Islam is not dead, he is very much alive. This is the advantage that Islam has over us; we are losing what little values we have left, while Islam (with its brainwashing and harsh penalties for apostasy) still has its core values. Western rationalism continues to destroy values and lead to nihilism. Islamic society does not have to worry about rationalism. Just look at the suicide bombings and people crying with joy at their sons being martyred. Islam is driven by emotion, not rationality. Western rationalism cannot defeat Islam because it is irrational.

This is not to say that we cannot defeat Islam. Only if atheists and Christians form a united front can we defeat Islam. Atheist rationalism provides the justification for the rejection of Islam, but only Christianity's remains can hope to provide the necessary irrational and fanatical values needed to counter Islam.

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27-08-2014, 07:57 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2014 08:11 AM by phil.a.)
RE: The cost of atheism
ChristianMan:

And by the way - instead of trying to scare people into Christianity with threats of Islam, why not consider attracting them to Christianity by dragging your church out of the dark ages and making it stand for something worthwhile?

Why not actually take your church to the leading edge of ethics and morality rather than having it dragging along behind the rest of society holding back ethical advancement?

Just a thought ;-)

Phil
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