The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
Please answer my other examples of Jesus' morality...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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27-08-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:45 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Bullshit.
Works fine for me, and countless others. YOU said morality comes from religion, and that's a good thing. THAT IS "utilitarian", if that is true. Please grow a brain, soon.


Bucky, I don't know if you caught my other post so I will repeat it here. I find you rude and unpleasant. You seem link a very angry and unhappy man. I don't think atheism is working for you. I will not engage with you again as you seem incapable of being civil.

You're very judgmental and a tad condescending, you know. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-08-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.

I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day. Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that. Thats why in the US Atheists are the most mistrusted people in society. Thats not going to change. Again, not a christian point, just a point.

However, atheists main point of attack has been on christianity. I realise that in the heat of debate silly things are said, christians are demonised, described as violent because of the OT, etc etc. And this has had an effect on society, you have had an impact. I think thats been seen in gay marriage etc.

Here is the rub. People are not turning to atheism, they never will. Instead Islam is filling the void. I predict that within 20 years the UK will be an Islamic state. I don't know about the US. If you want to know what that will look like, take a look at the Calaphate. This is the cost of atheism. You are trading Christianity for Islam.

Of course Christianity will continue and perhaps even thrive. Historically, it is when we are marginalised, and persecuted that the church is refined, becomes what it was meant to be, and grows. But what will society look like? Your attacks on Islam them will not be met with the same non-violent response that you have received from christians. This is the cost of atheism.

I agree that athiests shouldn't waste their time in most situations debating about the bible and Christianity, but my reason for thinking that is because

1) Most people who consider themselves to be Christians don't read or care about what is in the bible. There's no central debating point to consider.

2) The bible is a ridiculous book full of ancient myths, talking snakes, flood myths, virgins giving birth and so on. There would be no logic in me thinking "Hmmm all the other flood myths and creation stories from around the world sound like ridiculous tales coming from ancient people, but this book of myths might have some grounding to be taken seriously enough to debate about"

3) I actually think you're right that most Christians who do read the bible believe in turning the other cheek and are quite peaceful people. As opposed to the verses of the quran which quite often at least vaguely speak about fighting.

The bible is full of statements about loving your enemy and praying for them, yet I read not long ago an autobiography by an American sniper who was so proud to be Christian, yet he's hardly turning the other cheek or loving his enemies by shooting them from very far away with a high powered rifle. I wouldn't even know where to begin debating someone with that kind of illogical outlook.

On any forum or any youtube channel the only religion I think it's worth arguing about is Islam. I live in the UK and I also think it's an actual problem here.
And their holy book is an actual challenge to argue about because it's basically the same as the bible only more vague (which leaves more room for excuses) and in Arabic. Usually when you find something that looks wrong in the quran the excuses will be as follows.

1) That translation is wrong.
2) When that verse is related to the hadith it isn't as bad/wrong as it looks.

The quran is as ridiculous as the bible but Muslims will change the words of the quran to make it look more scientific than it is, they try hard to get scientific miracles from the quran.
I also think it's important for Islam to be continually criticized because it's obvious that at least in the UK people are much more afraid of criticizing Islam than Christianity. The end result could be politically correct people branding you as a racist, or it could be muslims killing you.
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27-08-2014, 12:10 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:54 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  That would be our innate, evolved moral compass. The one we all have prior to indoctrination.

For instance, some version of the Golden Rule is universal among humans (barring psychopaths and sociopaths). This is clearly consistent with equal rights for all.

Well the problem that you have is that your innate moral compass points in a completely different direction to large sections of the world's innate moral compass. How do you decide whose is right?

Try rereading what I wrote. You clearly did not understand it.

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27-08-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
Me thinks he has picked the wrong playground to find playmates.

On another note, I'm learning so much from you guys!! Smile

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27-08-2014, 12:16 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 12:09 PM)PaulPablo Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.

I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day. Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that. Thats why in the US Atheists are the most mistrusted people in society. Thats not going to change. Again, not a christian point, just a point.

However, atheists main point of attack has been on christianity. I realise that in the heat of debate silly things are said, christians are demonised, described as violent because of the OT, etc etc. And this has had an effect on society, you have had an impact. I think thats been seen in gay marriage etc.

Here is the rub. People are not turning to atheism, they never will. Instead Islam is filling the void. I predict that within 20 years the UK will be an Islamic state. I don't know about the US. If you want to know what that will look like, take a look at the Calaphate. This is the cost of atheism. You are trading Christianity for Islam.

Of course Christianity will continue and perhaps even thrive. Historically, it is when we are marginalised, and persecuted that the church is refined, becomes what it was meant to be, and grows. But what will society look like? Your attacks on Islam them will not be met with the same non-violent response that you have received from christians. This is the cost of atheism.

I agree that athiests shouldn't waste their time in most situations debating about the bible and Christianity, but my reason for thinking that is because

1) Most people who consider themselves to be Christians don't read or care about what is in the bible. There's no central debating point to consider.

2) The bible is a ridiculous book full of ancient myths, talking snakes, flood myths, virgins giving birth and so on. There would be no logic in me thinking "Hmmm all the other flood myths and creation stories from around the world sound like ridiculous tales coming from ancient people, but this book of myths might have some grounding to be taken seriously enough to debate about"

3) I actually think you're right that most Christians who do read the bible believe in turning the other cheek and are quite peaceful people. As opposed to the verses of the quran which quite often at least vaguely speak about fighting.

The bible is full of statements about loving your enemy and praying for them, yet I read not long ago an autobiography by an American sniper who was so proud to be Christian, yet he's hardly turning the other cheek or loving his enemies by shooting them from very far away with a high powered rifle. I wouldn't even know where to begin debating someone with that kind of illogical outlook.

On any forum or any youtube channel the only religion I think it's worth arguing about is Islam. I live in the UK and I also think it's an actual problem here.
And their holy book is an actual challenge to argue about because it's basically the same as the bible only more vague (which leaves more room for excuses) and in Arabic. Usually when you find something that looks wrong in the quran the excuses will be as follows.

1) That translation is wrong.
2) When that verse is related to the hadith it isn't as bad/wrong as it looks.

The quran is as ridiculous as the bible but Muslims will change the words of the quran to make it look more scientific than it is, they try hard to get scientific miracles from the quran.
I also think it's important for Islam to be continually criticized because it's obvious that at least in the UK people are much more afraid of criticizing Islam than Christianity. The end result could be politically correct people branding you as a racist, or it could be muslims killing you.
If a Muslim claims a mistranslation when the Qu'ran is not in Arabic then he effectively says that his God only speaks one language - thus he is surely not worthy of worship...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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27-08-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:39 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:10 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Look at this clown. This is going to be a slaughter once GWOG and Bucky go all Divinity college on him. The Bible was completed 2000 years ago!!!!!! It was despite that fact that most of the books were not even written til the 2nd or even 3rd century. What an ignoramus. Ok I don't have to bother with this fool at all as he knows nothing about his faith or his book.

Its such a shame to come here and just be called a fool, an ignoramus, a prat. Guys, your not selling atheism very well. Your just unpleasant not nice people, who seem incapable of reasonable and rational discussion. Do I have to be the enemy just because I am a chrisitan? I have friends who are atheists, we manage not to shoot each other. Yes, I disagree with you, and? Is that life threatening to you, are you insecure in your beliefs? I don't get it. I was hoping to make friends here.

I aint selling shit. You're the one with a product to move. Oh and that was entirely to do with your apparent lack of biblical history or compositional knowledge. Much as when someone disparages evolution by invoking the 2nd law of thermodynamics it tells me they have no knowledge of the subject at hand and are therefore not worth listening to on that subject. Were you in one of the non-debate sections of the forum then I would not care what your metaphysics were as long as you did not insert them. But you are here in this section exposing your ignorance while arrogantly claiming privileged knowledge.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-08-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 12:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:54 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Well the problem that you have is that your innate moral compass points in a completely different direction to large sections of the world's innate moral compass. How do you decide whose is right?

Try rereading what I wrote. You clearly did not understand it.

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say too.

You are going by societal or religiously imposed morals, we are talking about human morals.

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27-08-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 11:56 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 11:52 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  I couldn't find the original to this post. But my advice would be to leave Judaism and become a Christian then it won't be an issue for you.
Does not help the situation at all, Jesus said you still have to follow the old rules (Matthew 5:17).

No he didn't, He said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it. For example the rules on sacrificing animals are fulfilled in His sacrificial death; so instead of sacrificing animals we now trust in the ultimate sacrifice. Everything in the OT is either fulfilled and now taken up into the person of Christ, or fulfilled and then re-issued through Christ. Fulfilled is not abolished. Standard Christian theology.
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27-08-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
Bah. We have now the Jeremy Walker brother.
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