The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 02:10 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 01:53 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 01:50 PM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Who is forcing you to do anything? I respect your right to be an atheist. I profoundly disagree with you. But I would campaign for your right to be one.

It's worth bearing in mind that many users here don't have the same good fortune that we do to be British. In the US there are many who openly disrespect the rights of atheists and are doing everything to upend the separation of church and state which is to my mind the greatest achievement of the US constitution.

Thanks for the heads up. It is difficult sometimes talking across cultures. I wish the church and state in the UK were not married. It is bad for Christianity, bad for the state, and unbiblical.
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27-08-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 01:53 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  So since we have established that no one who wrote of jesus knew him...

Even though I agree with you for the most part, I think this statement is maybe a bit too strong. I know traditional Catholics who still claim that Matthew and John were the Matthew and John (apostles of Jesus), and that Mark was some sort of secretary to Peter, and therefore at least a secondhand eyewitness. Now, I know that the consensus of modern Biblical scholarship says this is unlikely (and that is my opinion as well), but it's not an exact science, and I don't know that it has been "established". I will grant the possibility that these gospels were written by eyewitnesses -- I just think it's very unlikely. I think the truth is that we don't know who wrote the gospels. Nobody can prove that they were written by eyewitnesses, but I don't think we can disprove it either. We should be careful about claiming things as facts that we really don't know.
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27-08-2014, 02:13 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 01:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 01:42 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Give him time, he's responding in turn to about a dozen different people.

Laugh out load

Yeah, I know. But, he skipped me when I said the Bible isn't literal as it never makes that claim.

I can't find the post that you are referring to, can you give me the number for it?
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27-08-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 12:52 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 12:48 PM)ChristianMan Wrote:  hmm thats a tone Ive come to expect here. Nice.

God you're so... Rolleyes precious. You think we *give* a damn about your feelings?

No, as an atheist I expect you to have very poor, inconsistent morality. Which you are demonstrating.
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27-08-2014, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2014 02:34 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 02:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 01:53 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  So since we have established that no one who wrote of jesus knew him...

Even though I agree with you for the most part, I think this statement is maybe a bit too strong. I know traditional Catholics who still claim that Matthew and John were the Matthew and John (apostles of Jesus), and that Mark was some sort of secretary to Peter, and therefore at least a secondhand eyewitness. Now, I know that the consensus of modern Biblical scholarship says this is unlikely (and that is my opinion as well), but it's not an exact science, and I don't know that it has been "established". I will grant the possibility that these gospels were written by eyewitnesses -- I just think it's very unlikely. I think the truth is that we don't know who wrote the gospels. Nobody can prove that they were written by eyewitnesses, but I don't think we can disprove it either. We should be careful about claiming things as facts that we really don't know.

You can find believers that will assert all sorts of nonsense because they HOPE it is true or WANT it to be true. Vast majority of biblical scholars and religious historians go along with my assertion in regards to the gospels. All of my text books from school in theology readily state that it was communities who wrote them, or close followers of them and then wrote under their name pseudo-anonymously. But I intentionally made that particular comment to draw him into a discussion of it. A word play. Like, "since we have established that you don't base your faith simply because of the complexity of the world, lets take that off the table for the moment and find out why you really believe"....type stuff Big Grin

also, "at least a secondhand eyewitness" qualifies as hearsay. If I tell you I saw a unicorn, and you go and write that down, you didn't witness the unicorn, thus you wrote it based on my testimony, which is hearsay.

I have broken down the hearsay thing before to great lengths many many times here, if you have something I have somehow missed, please provide it so I can analyze it. Smile

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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27-08-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 02:07 PM)ChristianMan Wrote:  You haven't established anything, you have just said... most scholars don't believe its this author.. I can't believe you base anything on this.

I'm amazed what you can't believe.

Given what you can believe :-)

Phil
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27-08-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 02:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 01:53 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  So since we have established that no one who wrote of jesus knew him...

Even though I agree with you for the most part, I think this statement is maybe a bit too strong. I know traditional Catholics who still claim that Matthew and John were the Matthew and John (apostles of Jesus), and that Mark was some sort of secretary to Peter, and therefore at least a secondhand eyewitness. Now, I know that the consensus of modern Biblical scholarship says this is unlikely (and that is my opinion as well), but it's not an exact science, and I don't know that it has been "established". I will grant the possibility that these gospels were written by eyewitnesses -- I just think it's very unlikely. I think the truth is that we don't know who wrote the gospels. Nobody can prove that they were written by eyewitnesses, but I don't think we can disprove it either. We should be careful about claiming things as facts that we really don't know.

The only one written close enough to the crucifixion (in about year 30) to have had an eye witness is Matthew. If you think the righter was young, but old enough to be a part of what was going on, say 15 or so in year 30. That would make that person a minimum of 75 at the time Matthew was written, using the year 90 as a reasonable estimate. That is on the extremely high end of life expectancy for that time. All the other were written far enough away to exceed the normal life span at that time to have been an eye witness.
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27-08-2014, 02:23 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 02:13 PM)ChristianMan Wrote:  I can't find the post that you are referring to, can you give me the number for it?
The post he is referring to is #230.

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27-08-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 02:17 PM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 12:52 PM)morondog Wrote:  God you're so... Rolleyes precious. You think we *give* a damn about your feelings?

No, as an atheist I expect you to have very poor, inconsistent morality. Which you are demonstrating.

Atheist are no different in the consistency of they morality that religious people. We are all human and exhibit the same traits.
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27-08-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
What about the books that were excluded from the bible? Were any of them written by an eyewitness? Perhaps this is a reason for their exclusion and subsequent banning... It always makes me shake my head when I think about these texts that were used, some regularly, and the church decided "Hey, we don't want to include that now."

Please visit my blog at whatisatheism.blogspot.com.
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