The cost of atheism
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28-08-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:19 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:11 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It lacks meaning in the current context.

OK so why did it lack meaning for Chas and not for ClydeLee?

Phil

Oh my, but you are tedious.

He sees some sort of metaphor; I do not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 09:54 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Yes, there's that!

Can you explain how it is meaningless?

Phil

It is nonsense. The words don't describe any meaningful or realistic action.

Yup, they seem absurd and contradictory

Hence, paradoxical.

Phil
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28-08-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:29 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is nonsense. The words don't describe any meaningful or realistic action.

Yup, they seem absurd and contradictory

Hence, paradoxical.

Phil

Contradictory is not the same as paradoxical.

Paradox:
"a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory."

So, no, multiple statements that contradict each other do not comprise a paradox.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:19 AM)phil.a Wrote:  OK so why did it lack meaning for Chas and not for ClydeLee?

Phil

Oh my, but you are tedious.

He sees some sort of metaphor; I do not.

OK, and that's the whole point of it! It's supposed to completely frustrate the intellect, as Zen would say it's supposed to present as a silver mountain or a steel wall.

The idea is to struggle with it until you get a new insight from which it all makes perfect sense.

Usually the insight will surface and turn over some really fundamental belief that was right in the back of your mind (framing your perspectives) but hadn't actually been examined, so the act of seeing through the paradox usually adds significant new extra complexity to your thinking.

Phil
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28-08-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:38 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  Oh my, but you are tedious.

He sees some sort of metaphor; I do not.

OK, and that's the whole point of it! It's supposed to completely frustrate the intellect, as Zen would say it's supposed to present as a silver mountain or a steel wall.

The idea is to struggle with it until you get a new insight from which it all makes perfect sense.

Usually the insight will surface and turn over some really fundamental belief that was right in the back of your mind (framing your perspectives) but hadn't actually been examined, so the act of seeing through the paradox usually adds significant new extra complexity to your thinking.

Phil

There is no paradox. And it is not at all Zen-like.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2014, 10:41 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:29 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Yup, they seem absurd and contradictory

Hence, paradoxical.

Phil

Contradictory is not the same as paradoxical.

Paradox:
"a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory."

So, no, multiple statements that contradict each other do not comprise a paradox.

Are you sure? ^

Phil
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28-08-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:41 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  Contradictory is not the same as paradoxical.

Paradox:
"a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory."

So, no, multiple statements that contradict each other do not comprise a paradox.

Are you sure? ^

Phil

Yes, although I should have said "So, no, multiple statements that contradict each other do not necessarily comprise a paradox."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:41 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Are you sure? ^

Phil

Yes.

Fine!

Phil
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28-08-2014, 12:36 PM
Re: RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 10:19 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:11 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It lacks meaning in the current context.

OK so why did it lack meaning for Chas and not for ClydeLee?

Phil

It did lack meaning to me, hence blandness. No meaning of any merit. Chas explained what a paradox is, all that statement has was something, if taken literally, that was something not physically possible. Jesus or whoever saying that isn't a paradox; just like me telling you, go walk to the moon, isn't a paradox. It would just be me telling you to do something you can't do.

And the zen monk concept is for you to not struggle with the question. You think of something but don't focus on the parts as contradicting and open yourself to it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-08-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: The cost of atheism
(28-08-2014 12:36 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 10:19 AM)phil.a Wrote:  OK so why did it lack meaning for Chas and not for ClydeLee?

Phil

It did lack meaning to me, hence blandness. No meaning of any merit.

So have you then "entered the kingdom" as promised by Jesus?

What did you see?

Quote:And the zen monk concept is for you to not struggle with the question. You think of something but don't focus on the parts as contradicting and open yourself to it.

Yup, agreed - that's a better explanation.

Phil
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