The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:17 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:08 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  I understand and appreciate your position. I think some people produce more heat than light, and in the frenzy of a cause fail to see clearly.

See what clearly? Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu, Thor? But fortunately for us after 200,000 years of human evolution, and lots of dead religions you rightfully reject, and all the other religions on planet of 7 billion, magically you got it right.

We don't read a book containing absurd claims like men magically popping out of dirt, or talking snakes, or babies born without a second set of DNA. You are the one with the invisible sky hero, not us.

We really do not care about your self serving circular reasoning because all religions quote their books to prove their deities. Just like being at the DMV, get in line and take a number.

But Christianity is dying because we now recognize these things as impossible. But our values based in Christianity die with it. Now we need new values, and plenty of people are happy to provide. The problem is that we don't know what those new values will be yet, so it is becoming a free for all to get your new values accepted.

Think of our values like a box. Right now that box is filled with Christianity, but Christianity is dissolving at an exponential rate. Everyone is trying to put their values in the new space that is opening up in the box as Christianity dissolves. What goes into that box could very well turn out to be our values for the next 1,000 years, so it is of the utmost importance that we be careful what goes in there.

The Islamic world also has a box of values, but Islam is expanding, not dissolving, and there is plenty of extra Islam that could be placed in the Western values box. We must stop Islam from going into that box.

Many over the years have proposed what these new values should be. Even before Nietzsche formulated the death of god philosophers were trying to figure out what should go in the box. The Enlightenment philosophers were the ones who formulated the rationalism that is causing Christianity to dissolve. Don't get me wrong, I love living with Enlightenment values, but the Enlightenment values can't fill the box up enough to keep other things from going in. Like I said, rationalism cannot defend against what is not driven by rationality. For a few hundred years now rationalism his been filling the gaps it creates in Christianity. Christianity has provided the irrational fanaticism necessary to keep other values from displacing rationalism, but with out Christianity something else is needed. That could be anything, and that is what frightens me.

Paleoliberal • English Nationalist • Zionist • Rightist • Anti-Islam • Neoconservative • Republican • Linguistic Revivalist and Purist

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27-08-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:04 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  I'm not sure what you mean about taking the church to the leading edge on ethics and morality? Is it reference to same sex marriage? Im not sure what you mean.

Which unfortunately demonstrates my point.

Pretty much every ethical advancement that I can think of in the last century (women's rights, gay rights etc etc), the church has been holding things back rather than leading the charge and you are not even aware of it.

Unlike you, most non-religious people are fully aware that the church has been hindering ethical development. It's one big reason why so many British people regard the church as an anachronistic dinosaur which has no more relevance.

I would say (and I would think my above graph would say) that for the church - it's evolve or die off time? Either is fine by me!

Phil
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27-08-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:18 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  hmm, I wonder why atheists are considered untrustworthy and immoral? I wonder what conclusion someone reading this thread would come to.

Please put away that broad brush. The only thing atheists have in common is the lack of belief in god(s). Beyond that, mileage, (and individual personalities), will vary, just like with religious folks.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid634364
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27-08-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:24 AM)pablo Wrote:  
Quote:I wonder what conclusion someone reading this thread would come to.

I conclude you've come here claiming you don't want to start a fight, then proceeded to try to start one.

Pablo, I don't see how I have started a fight. Can you point it out to me? I didn't however, expect the abuse that I have received. And I don't think I have said anything to warrant it. Unless not taking the same position as you is intolerable.

Of course, that is a move in society in general. Tolerance no longer means people respectfully disagreeing, it now means we can't disagree at all.
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27-08-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:04 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I'm an atheist, but I still fear the death of god, for a valueless society will start to look everywhere for values, and I worry about what these values might be.
I used to think that when I was in highschool actually.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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27-08-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:32 AM)TheBear Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:18 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  hmm, I wonder why atheists are considered untrustworthy and immoral? I wonder what conclusion someone reading this thread would come to.

Please put away that broad brush. The only thing atheists have in common is the lack of belief in god(s). Beyond that, mileage, (and individual personalities), will vary, just like with religious folk.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid634364

I understand what you mean. But from the outside world it looks like you have no moorings other than to do what is right in your own eyes. You have a shared non-value system.
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27-08-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 07:59 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  If Christianity were to go to the leading edge of morality and ethics it wouldn't be Christianity any more Phil...

How do you know Jesus would not be an atheist if he was alive today?

Phil
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27-08-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
I've still yet to see any citations for your arguments in the OP...

I live in hope


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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27-08-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:34 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 07:59 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  If Christianity were to go to the leading edge of morality and ethics it wouldn't be Christianity any more Phil...

How do you know Jesus would not be an atheist if he was alive today?

Phil

Phil,

I know He would't be an atheist because it would mean not believing in His own existence which seems irrational.
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27-08-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:34 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 07:59 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  If Christianity were to go to the leading edge of morality and ethics it wouldn't be Christianity any more Phil...

How do you know Jesus would not be an atheist if he was alive today?

Phil

You mean he might get treatment for hearing voices?


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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