The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 08:36 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 07:59 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 07:57 AM)phil.a Wrote:  ChristianMan:

And by the way - instead of trying to scare people into Christianity with threats of Islam, why not consider attracting them to Christianity by dragging your church out of the dark ages?

Why not actually take your church to the leading edge of ethics and morality rather than having it dragging along behind the rest of society holding back ethical advancement?

Just a thought ;-)

Phl

Because in doing so the Church itself is stripped of Christian values.


I think actually by doing that, the church might finally step into true "christian" values, in terms of how Jesus himself is portrayed.

And, as they say - better late than never :-)

Phil
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27-08-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:34 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  I've still yet to see any citations for your arguments in the OP...

I live in hope

Ok, give me some time and I will try and pull something out for you.

Is that Chris Hitchins in your picture? I do miss him, the world is a poorer place without him. I used to love listening to him, even in areas I did not agree with.
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27-08-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:28 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:21 AM)wazzel Wrote:  That is odd. Most religious people reject lots of the "values" their religion historically held. Look back at the old testament and see how much of those values have been tossed by modern Christians and Jews. Most people, religious or not, live by the golden rule. Not much more is needed.

I'm trying so hard not to be drawn. The problem I have come across with atheists is that they want to quote OT texts and say christians have abandoned / changed their minds on them etc. I understand that when your fighting a cause its easy to make blanket statements without seeing how christians understand how their own tests work. The Bible interprets itself, it tells us what is abidingly valid and what was fulfilled at the coming of Christ etc. Let me give a brief example. In the OT the Sabbath was on a Sunday and work was forbidden. In the New Covenant, Christ fulfils what the Sabbath was pointing to ---- resting from dead works -----. and so we keep the Sabbath by trusting in Jesus.

On the other hand we maintain homosexual practice is wrong because it is outlawed in the OT, and the re-outlawed in the New Testament. (outlawed personally not civically).

**** I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about atheism, I think thats pointless. Just correcting inaccuracies******

Since we are correcting inaccuracies the Sabbath is from sundown on Friday to Sundown on Saturday, not Sunday.

I am not a life long atheist. I was a Christian for over 30 years and have done a lot of studying on the subject. The modern church does indeed decide to pick and choose what old values are still applicable. That is not a blanket statement, it is the truth. You proved that point in your response.
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27-08-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
We don't care what part of that book you quote. Muslims quote the Koran and Jews quote their books and all three come from the same line. Prior to any of them existing the Hebrews stole their characters from the Canaanite polytheism.

It never occurs to believers of any of the three that it is all merely in their heads and ancient books of myth have nothing to do with modern knowledge.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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27-08-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day. Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that.
I would argue that humans rather have an apparent need to question and understand. Religion historically has fulfilled that need, and continues to do so, especially for young children who do not yet understand the world. Although the understanding that religion offers is a huge lie and a scam IMO.

For the record I have friends who are Muslim, just as I have friends who are Christian/Catholic. All good people. Both belief systems are pretty much equally matched in misinformation and magical thinking, but that's just a small part of who they are (at least in the case of my friends) so we just don't talk about it.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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27-08-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:32 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:24 AM)pablo Wrote:  I conclude you've come here claiming you don't want to start a fight, then proceeded to try to start one.

Pablo, I don't see how I have started a fight. Can you point it out to me? I didn't however, expect the abuse that I have received. And I don't think I have said anything to warrant it. Unless not taking the same position as you is intolerable.

Of course, that is a move in society in general. Tolerance no longer means people respectfully disagreeing, it now means we can't disagree at all.

Right out of the gate you told us that what we are doing is pointless and will be run over by Islam. People tend to get defensive when you do that. Remember, you came here, you didn't need to, but you did.
You've already been given far more freedom of speech here than any atheist would ever get on a christian site.
Chill out Frank.
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27-08-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:35 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:34 AM)phil.a Wrote:  How do you know Jesus would not be an atheist if he was alive today?

Phil

Phil,

I know He would't be an atheist because it would mean not believing in His own existence which seems irrational.

Jesus was an iconoclast, a revolutionary.

Everything the church has become is what he was not.

Phil
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27-08-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:37 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:34 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  I've still yet to see any citations for your arguments in the OP...

I live in hope

Ok, give me some time and I will try and pull something out for you.

Is that Chris Hitchins in your picture? I do miss him, the world is a poorer place without him. I used to love listening to him, even in areas I did not agree with.

I look forward to it.

And yes it is Christopher Hitchens - and I agree with your sentiment entirely.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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27-08-2014, 08:47 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
Welcome aboard. Smile

Please keep in mind that many religious people come here and act like morons. It makes users a little quick on the trigger.

Are people turning to Islam or is it the birth rates among certian muslim populations? That would make a difference.

Islam seems to have a bit of a civil war going on and they'll have to sort that out. Look at the response of muslim governments to the caliphate(s) being claimed.

The UK seems to have a much more radicalized segment of their muslim population than we do in the U.S. From what I read the muslims seem much more segregated from your society in general than here.

Islam is such a small factor here in percentage, they also do not try to change things for everyone else. If they do we'll be just as vocal with them.

I for one, do not think Xians are viloent. I do however think the object of their worship as described in the bible is a very, very unpleasant and nasty role model. Luckily most of them do not take it as gospel (if you'll pardon the pun).

In the U.S, most atheists concetrate on christianity because it's the dominant faith and the one politicians use when trying to restrict rights, deny science or ruin education.

In any case I think the ease of obtaining will make indoctrination harder.

Again, welcome, I hope you stick around if you want honest conversation.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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27-08-2014, 08:48 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:31 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:04 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  I'm not sure what you mean about taking the church to the leading edge on ethics and morality? Is it reference to same sex marriage? Im not sure what you mean.

Which unfortunately demonstrates my point.

Pretty much every ethical advancement that I can think of in the last century (women's rights, gay rights etc etc), the church has been holding things back rather than leading the charge and you are not even aware of it.

Unlike you, most non-religious people are fully aware that the church has been hindering ethical development. It's one big reason why so many British people regard the church as an anachronistic dinosaur which has no more relevance.

I would say (and I would think my above graph would say) that for the church - it's evolve or die off time? Either is fine by me!

Phil

Thanks for the examples Phil. Ok, I will briefly (and calmly lol) take you up on these issues, if you think we can have a reasoned and reasonable discussion.

Firstly, women's rights. Two things on this. Christianity has not held back women's rights, in fact from the start women were liberated in the teachings of Jesus. And the western societies that brought about women's rights did so on the back of their christian heritage. I agree with women's rights. I don't know a christian who doesn't.

On the other hand, if I step into your world view. On what basis do you say that women's rights in an ethical advancement? The Eastern world firmly disagrees with you. you are a product of your society. Why and how can you claim that their society is wrong? On What basis?

Secondly, on the issue of homosexuality, again why do you say that it constitutes moral advancement? It is obviously against nature, it is obviously bad for people's individual health, and it is obviously bad for society in terms of gay adoption etc, and for the propagation of the species. It flies in the face of evolution. How do you justify saying it is a moral advancement?

And of course the same applies, countries like Russia, and the whole of the middle east do not agree with you at all. On what basis do you say that you ideas constitute advancement and their regression? Why do you take the moral high ground, when there is no substance underneath you?
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