The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:02 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:50 AM)TheBear Wrote:  I don't think you do.

You lumped all atheists together as being mistrusted, using an individual atheist reading your posts as rude and demanding that we obey you, as an example. I, another atheist, disagreed with that other atheist's assessment of your posts/attitude. I even linked you to the specific post where I disagreed with him.

I was actually in your corner on this one, but you missed it. Maybe you're reading to fast and not picking up on everything said. It's not good to do a quick glance at a post then do a knee-jerk, reactionary reply. Read everything thoroughly, absorb what was said, then reply.

Hi Bear, apologies for that. Its not easy when you one, answering numerous posts.

You're only replying to one post at a time. Read the entirety of each post you're replying to, then reply.

Take a deep breath. Relax.....
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27-08-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:48 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Thanks for the examples Phil. Ok, I will briefly (and calmly lol) take you up on these issues, if you think we can have a reasoned and reasonable discussion.

Firstly, women's rights. Two things on this. Christianity has not held back women's rights, in fact from the start women were liberated in the teachings of Jesus. And the western societies that brought about women's rights did so on the back of their christian heritage. I agree with women's rights. I don't know a christian who doesn't.

How about - the pope? How about that Christian ;-)

You see - women still aren't treated as equals even in the church. Let alone the church championing sexual equality in the outside world. Sexual equality was sorted out by the rest of the british population years ago, and yet - the church still hasn't got the memo. If the church is a guardian of morality then it needs to be at the leading edge of the advancement of ethics. Rather than the total opposite of that.

Quote:On the other hand, if I step into your world view. On what basis do you say that women's rights in an ethical advancement?

Do you not realise that you are hammering nails into your own coffin with that question?



Quote:Secondly, on the issue of homosexuality, again why do you say that it constitutes moral advancement? It is obviously against nature, it is obviously bad for people's individual health, and it is obviously bad for society in terms of gay adoption etc, and for the propagation of the species. It flies in the face of evolution. How do you justify saying it is a moral advancement?

Because homosexuality is a natural behavioural expression for a homosexual.

I know - I am one?

I am a gay man.

How do you think your comments about homosexuality have left me feeling towards you and your church?

Do you not realise that the vast majority of people in the UK are now accepting of homosexuality, most people know someoone who is gay these days.

How do you think they feel, when they hear you talking about their friends and family in the way you have just done above?

You see - you've just nailed me to a cross.

Read the history books to get an idea of how that one goes?

Phil
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27-08-2014, 09:13 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:05 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:58 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi Kid, thanks for the welcome and pleasant post.

Islam is different that Christianity. No one is born a christian, but you are born a muslim. Their very purposeful takeover takes many forms, from conversion to marriage, to war, to birth. Islam is a political, social and civic movement. Christianity is a spiritual movement. It was never meant to be political. i think the US went wrong there (if I understand it rightly), and the UK went wrong in having a state church - something I oppose.

You are right that in the UK islam is segregated, it does not integrate well. Recently, it has infiltrated state schools. There have been muslim patrols on the streets where they tell people to put Alcohol away, women to cover up, people must not walk past their mosques, men have been beaten. Our Government has been very naive. Islam is like a virus, it doesn't care how or where it grows as long as it grows. Muslims believe the whole world belongs to Allah, and every Muslim has a duty to be taking space and countries for him. I think Islam is greatly underestimated.

Another posted noted that its not rational. I think this is where western governments have failed. they think they can make Muslims think like westerners and hold western ideals.

Incorrect, most people are born into what ever their parents are. Kids are indoctrinated from birth. Pick your religion and it is true.

Incorrect again, at least from a historical perspective. Christianity and government were joined at the hip for a long time in many countries. Just look at the history of the UK.

I think you are missing what I said.

No one is born a christian. They may be baptised as a baby and taken to church, but they are not a christian until they make a personal decision, in the Anglican church this is in confirmation, in the free church etc. it is when they choose. As a christian parent I hope my children find the reality of God as I haven, but thats not my decision it is theirs. By very definition you cannot force anyone to be a christian. People who profess to be a christian can also freely leave the faith. Muslims get the death penalty.

On the other hand, Muslims are born that way. Islam is a nation as such...

Biblically, church and state should never be mixed. That is not Christianity.
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27-08-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
Quote:Firstly, women's rights. Two things on this. Christianity has not held back women's rights, in fact from the start women were liberated in the teachings of Jesus. And the western societies that brought about women's rights did so on the back of their christian heritage. I agree with women's rights. I don't know a christian who doesn't.

As long as she doesn't do anything the church frowns on, abortion for example.

Quote: On what basis do you say that women's rights in an ethical advancement? The Eastern world firmly disagrees with you. you are a product of your society. Why and how can you claim that their society is wrong? On What basis?

Why and how do you think treating a person as less than equal because of their gender is right anywhere in the world? Wouldn't the Eastern world also be a product of their society?

Quote:Secondly, on the issue of homosexuality, again why do you say that it constitutes moral advancement? It is obviously against nature, it is obviously bad for people's individual health, and it is obviously bad for society in terms of gay adoption etc, and for the propagation of the species. It flies in the face of evolution. How do you justify saying it is a moral advancement?

It is not obviously against nature, homosexuality occurs across many species.
How, exactly, is it "bad for people's individual health"?
Gay adoption is not bad for society, (unless fewer orphans is bad) it is however, bad for the church. Gay couples are less likely to be Christians, their children are then less likely to be raised, or become Christians. This means it hurts the church's main concerns, money and power.
As far as propagation of the species, there are roughly 7 billion of us, we don't really need a couple billion more do we?
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27-08-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:07 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:37 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Since we are correcting inaccuracies the Sabbath is from sundown on Friday to Sundown on Saturday, not Sunday.

I am not a life long atheist. I was a Christian for over 30 years and have done a lot of studying on the subject. The modern church does indeed decide to pick and choose what old values are still applicable. That is not a blanket statement, it is the truth. You proved that point in your response.

Can you elaborate please? Can you give me examples of picking and choosing?

You're kind of forced to pick and choose, because the Bible contradicts itself. Even if we ignore the Old Testament, Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" -- and he also said to "turn the other cheek". He said (in the Gospel of John) that you're damned unless you believe in him -- but he also said (in the parable of the sheep and the goats -- in Matthew, I believe) that it all depends on how you treat your fellow man. Not a word in there about what you believe.

Pretty easy to get confused with such conflicting advice. And people do get confused. Catholics and Protestants have been arguing for centuries about "faith vs. works". You can also talk about the New Testament law superceding the Old Testament law, but Jesus specifically denied that.
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27-08-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.

I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day. Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that. Thats why in the US Atheists are the most mistrusted people in society. Thats not going to change. Again, not a christian point, just a point.

However, atheists main point of attack has been on christianity. I realise that in the heat of debate silly things are said, christians are demonised, described as violent because of the OT, etc etc. And this has had an effect on society, you have had an impact. I think thats been seen in gay marriage etc.

Here is the rub. People are not turning to atheism, they never will. Instead Islam is filling the void. I predict that within 20 years the UK will be an Islamic state. I don't know about the US. If you want to know what that will look like, take a look at the Calaphate. This is the cost of atheism. You are trading Christianity for Islam.

Of course Christianity will continue and perhaps even thrive. Historically, it is when we are marginalised, and persecuted that the church is refined, becomes what it was meant to be, and grows. But what will society look like? Your attacks on Islam them will not be met with the same non-violent response that you have received from christians. This is the cost of atheism.

Actually you're totally wrong. The educated Northern European countries are more and more irreligious. So, people ARE dumping the nonsense of religion. There is no evidence, nor have you provided any, that athesim is causing anything. Your assertions are meaningless, irrational, and unsupported in any way with FACTS. WE are trading nothing. More threats from the Christards. Hell didn't work, so now you try to scare people with this shit.

Thanks for again making your cult look as foolish as we know you really are.

Thumbsup

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-08-2014, 09:20 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:08 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:48 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Thanks for the examples Phil. Ok, I will briefly (and calmly lol) take you up on these issues, if you think we can have a reasoned and reasonable discussion.

Firstly, women's rights. Two things on this. Christianity has not held back women's rights, in fact from the start women were liberated in the teachings of Jesus. And the western societies that brought about women's rights did so on the back of their christian heritage. I agree with women's rights. I don't know a christian who doesn't.

How about - the pope? How about that Christian ;-)

You see - women still aren't treated as equals even in the church. Let alone the church championing sexual equality in the outside world. Sexual equality was sorted out by the rest of the british population years ago, and yet - the church still hasn't got the memo. If the church is a guardian of morality then it needs to be at the leading edge of the advancement of ethics. Rather than the total opposite of that.

Quote:On the other hand, if I step into your world view. On what basis do you say that women's rights in an ethical advancement?

Do you not realise that you are hammering nails into your own coffin with that question?



Quote:Secondly, on the issue of homosexuality, again why do you say that it constitutes moral advancement? It is obviously against nature, it is obviously bad for people's individual health, and it is obviously bad for society in terms of gay adoption etc, and for the propagation of the species. It flies in the face of evolution. How do you justify saying it is a moral advancement?

Because homosexuality is a natural behavioural expression for a homosexual.

I know - I am one?

I am a gay man.

How do you think your comments about homosexuality have left me feeling towards you and your church?

Do you not realise that the vast majority of people in the UK are now accepting of homosexuality, most people know someoone who is gay these days.

How do you think they feel, when they hear you talking about their friends and family in the way you have just done above?

You see - you've just nailed me to a cross.

Read the history books to get an idea of how that one goes?

Phil

Phil

Thanks for your reply. You still didn't answer the most important question. On what basis do you make the distinction that you are right and many are wrong? Please answer this.

You being a gay man, and how you feel about me as a christian is a very good point that I made in another post. What is tolerance?

I respect your right to be gay. I would even campaign to make sure of your human right to make that choice. But I believe that your lifestyle is morally wrong.

You, seem to not be able to live with that. Why can't there be true tolerance? Why can't we disagree, and that be ok? I will never agree with your lifestyle, and you will probably never agree that your lifestyle is wrong. I think we can still respect each other though and live with the tension?

There is another point though. You think that christianity is not compatible with a gay lifestyle. I say, that Atheism is equally incompatible with a gay lifestyle.

Perhaps you should be an agnostic?
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27-08-2014, 09:21 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 06:59 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Hi all,

Brief disclosure, I am a christian but not here to get into bun fights. Been there, done that, not interested.

I do want to raise a point about the cost of atheism to the western world. In particular I live in the UK, but I'm sure this holds true for the US etc.

I do not think that atheism ever has a chance of winning the day. Thats not because I am a christian its just that human beings have an inherent need to worship and derive meaning from God - however they articulate or formulate that. Thats why in the US Atheists are the most mistrusted people in society. Thats not going to change. Again, not a christian point, just a point.

However, atheists main point of attack has been on christianity. I realise that in the heat of debate silly things are said, christians are demonised, described as violent because of the OT, etc etc. And this has had an effect on society, you have had an impact. I think thats been seen in gay marriage etc.

Here is the rub. People are not turning to atheism, they never will. Instead Islam is filling the void. I predict that within 20 years the UK will be an Islamic state. I don't know about the US. If you want to know what that will look like, take a look at the Calaphate. This is the cost of atheism. You are trading Christianity for Islam.

Of course Christianity will continue and perhaps even thrive. Historically, it is when we are marginalised, and persecuted that the church is refined, becomes what it was meant to be, and grows. But what will society look like? Your attacks on Islam them will not be met with the same non-violent response that you have received from christians. This is the cost of atheism.

Actually you're totally wrong. The educated Northern European countries are more and more irreligious. So, people ARE dumping the nonsense of religion. There is no evidence, nor have you provided any, that athesim is causing anything. Your assertions are meaningless, irrational, and unsupported in any way with FACTS. WE are trading nothing. More threats from the Christards. Hell didn't work, so now you try to scare people with this shit.

Thanks for again making your cult look as foolish as we know you really are.

Thumbsup

hmm nice, well thought out, reasoned and gracious reply.
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27-08-2014, 09:24 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:07 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:37 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Since we are correcting inaccuracies the Sabbath is from sundown on Friday to Sundown on Saturday, not Sunday.

I am not a life long atheist. I was a Christian for over 30 years and have done a lot of studying on the subject. The modern church does indeed decide to pick and choose what old values are still applicable. That is not a blanket statement, it is the truth. You proved that point in your response.

Can you elaborate please? Can you give me examples of picking and choosing?

So you still send your wife out of town when she is on her period? When is the stoning of the adulteress this week? Shall I continue or do you concede the point?
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27-08-2014, 09:25 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2014 09:30 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 08:28 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  On the other hand we maintain homosexual practice is wrong because it is outlawed in the OT, and the re-outlawed in the New Testament. (outlawed personally not civically).

**** I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about atheism, I think thats pointless. Just correcting inaccuracies******

Your "we" is complete bullshit. SOME (few Fundie) Christians still maintain same-sex relationships are "outlawed". Many mainline sects of Chruistianity now BLESS same-sex unions. Get your facts straight, (sic). In fact you know nothing about the culture that produced those proscriptions, or why they did that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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