The cost of atheism
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27-08-2014, 09:28 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:19 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:07 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  Can you elaborate please? Can you give me examples of picking and choosing?

You're kind of forced to pick and choose, because the Bible contradicts itself. Even if we ignore the Old Testament, Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" -- and he also said to "turn the other cheek". He said (in the Gospel of John) that you're damned unless you believe in him -- but he also said (in the parable of the sheep and the goats -- in Matthew, I believe) that it all depends on how you treat your fellow man. Not a word in there about what you believe.

Pretty easy to get confused with such conflicting advice. And people do get confused. Catholics and Protestants have been arguing for centuries about "faith vs. works". You can also talk about the New Testament law superceding the Old Testament law, but Jesus specifically denied that.

Ok, I can see where you are coming from. I maintain that we do not pick and choose we use a principle could the analogy of scripture. Scripture interprets scripture, and its actually very consistent. Let me take up your examples.

Jesus did say that he came not to bring peace but a sword, and he did also say that we are to turn the other cheek. If you read them in light of all of his teachings you see that this clearly means that believing in him will cause great division on the earth, even within families. He didn't come to bring world peace, he came as a saviour to everyone who would accept Him, and those who don't will do so rather violently (atheists come to mind). this is the message of the whole of the New Testement.

He did say we are saved by believing in him, and he said we will be judged by our works. This actually answers the question of those who think God is some kind of mug who can be fooled by saying we believe and then live sinfully and still go to heaven. In the words of James, Faith without works is dead. Obeying Christ is proof that we are trusting and believing in Him.

No cherry picking
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27-08-2014, 09:29 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2014 09:37 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:21 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Actually you're totally wrong. The educated Northern European countries are more and more irreligious. So, people ARE dumping the nonsense of religion. There is no evidence, nor have you provided any, that athesim is causing anything. Your assertions are meaningless, irrational, and unsupported in any way with FACTS. WE are trading nothing. More threats from the Christards. Hell didn't work, so now you try to scare people with this shit.

Thanks for again making your cult look as foolish as we know you really are.

Thumbsup

hmm nice, well thought out, reasoned and gracious reply.

The reply was as well thought out and reasoned as the OP deserves. Provide a reasoned post, and you'll get a reasoned reply. I see you actually have no facts or reasons other than you own biggoted opinions.

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27-08-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:25 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 08:28 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  On the other hand we maintain homosexual practice is wrong because it is outlawed in the OT, and the re-outlawed in the New Testament. (outlawed personally not civically).

**** I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about atheism, I think thats pointless. Just correcting inaccuracies******

Your "we" is complete bullshit. SOME (few Fundie) Christians still maintain same-sex relationships are "outlawed". Many mainline sects of Chruistianity now BLESS same-sex unions. Get your facts striaght, (sic). In fact you know nothing about the culture that produced those proscriptions, or why they did that.

I think the sensible thing to do is rather than trying to speak for what everyone who may call themselves a christian believes, just point out what the Bible teaches. There are liberal 'christians' who do not believe the Bible at all. There are other Christians that make the Bible fit how they want to live, like the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement. I would be a long time posting if i had to quote everyone's views, better to quote the source I think.
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27-08-2014, 09:33 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:28 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:19 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You're kind of forced to pick and choose, because the Bible contradicts itself. Even if we ignore the Old Testament, Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" -- and he also said to "turn the other cheek". He said (in the Gospel of John) that you're damned unless you believe in him -- but he also said (in the parable of the sheep and the goats -- in Matthew, I believe) that it all depends on how you treat your fellow man. Not a word in there about what you believe.

Pretty easy to get confused with such conflicting advice. And people do get confused. Catholics and Protestants have been arguing for centuries about "faith vs. works". You can also talk about the New Testament law superceding the Old Testament law, but Jesus specifically denied that.

Ok, I can see where you are coming from. I maintain that we do not pick and choose we use a principle could the analogy of scripture. Scripture interprets scripture, and its actually very consistent. Let me take up your examples.

Jesus did say that he came not to bring peace but a sword, and he did also say that we are to turn the other cheek. If you read them in light of all of his teachings you see that this clearly means that believing in him will cause great division on the earth, even within families. He didn't come to bring world peace, he came as a saviour to everyone who would accept Him, and those who don't will do so rather violently (atheists come to mind). this is the message of the whole of the New Testement.

He did say we are saved by believing in him, and he said we will be judged by our works. This actually answers the question of those who think God is some kind of mug who can be fooled by saying we believe and then live sinfully and still go to heaven. In the words of James, Faith without works is dead. Obeying Christ is proof that we are trusting and believing in Him.

No cherry picking

You're assuming that any of the bible is true. Toss the book, try thinking for yourself. It might surprise you.
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27-08-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:31 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:25 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your "we" is complete bullshit. SOME (few Fundie) Christians still maintain same-sex relationships are "outlawed". Many mainline sects of Chruistianity now BLESS same-sex unions. Get your facts striaght, (sic). In fact you know nothing about the culture that produced those proscriptions, or why they did that.

I think the sensible thing to do is rather than trying to speak for what everyone who may call themselves a christian believes, just point out what the Bible teaches. There are liberal 'christians' who do not believe the Bible at all. There are other Christians that make the Bible fit how they want to live, like the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement. I would be a long time posting if i had to quote everyone's views, better to quote the source I think.

The POINT of your OP was that atheism was *costing* something.
Prove it. Provide a peer reviewed study of why people trade belief systems. You can't and you won't.

The fact is there are 33,000 sects of Christians. You all think YOU ALONE possess the "truth".

So why exactly are you here ? You think you can assert nonsense and get no push-back ? I know more about your religion and the Bible than you do.
You can here to discuss what exactly ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-08-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
The bible supports women's advancement?

Why then does it list them below a man's possessions and why does it teach that if a man rapes a woman then he must pay her father and marry her regardless of her wishes.

That tells you everything about the bible's take on female independence...there is none.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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27-08-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:17 AM)pablo Wrote:  
Quote:Firstly, women's rights. Two things on this. Christianity has not held back women's rights, in fact from the start women were liberated in the teachings of Jesus. And the western societies that brought about women's rights did so on the back of their christian heritage. I agree with women's rights. I don't know a christian who doesn't.

As long as she doesn't do anything the church frowns on, abortion for example.

Quote: On what basis do you say that women's rights in an ethical advancement? The Eastern world firmly disagrees with you. you are a product of your society. Why and how can you claim that their society is wrong? On What basis?

Why and how do you think treating a person as less than equal because of their gender is right anywhere in the world? Wouldn't the Eastern world also be a product of their society?

Quote:Secondly, on the issue of homosexuality, again why do you say that it constitutes moral advancement? It is obviously against nature, it is obviously bad for people's individual health, and it is obviously bad for society in terms of gay adoption etc, and for the propagation of the species. It flies in the face of evolution. How do you justify saying it is a moral advancement?

It is not obviously against nature, homosexuality occurs across many species.
How, exactly, is it "bad for people's individual health"?
Gay adoption is not bad for society, (unless fewer orphans is bad) it is however, bad for the church. Gay couples are less likely to be Christians, their children are then less likely to be raised, or become Christians. This means it hurts the church's main concerns, money and power.
As far as propagation of the species, there are roughly 7 billion of us, we don't really need a couple billion more do we?

Actually the church is very supportive of those who have abortions. You don't have to support the killing of the unborn in order to support those who suffer the tragedy of going through with such a thing.

So secondly your basis for saying everyone should be equal is that you think so. Well there are large parts of the world doesn't think so. That's kind of a problem for your atheism. I think your missing the elephant in the room.

On the one hand you want to destroy and cut down christianity that has offered objective morality. Objective here meaning outside of us. You are then left with corporate and social evolutionary subjective morality. But having removed objectivity you have no grounds to make and force other nations to agree with you, when they think differently. You have nothing to appeal to. You stand on quicksand.

Tell me plainly, why are you infallibly right about homosexuality and Russia and Islamic States completely wrong? Its rhetorical, as you have no answer.
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27-08-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:38 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  The bible supports women's advancement?

Why then does it list them below a man's possessions and why does it teach that if a man rapes a woman then he must pay her father and marry her regardless of her wishes.

That tells you everything about the bible's take on female independence...there is none.

Are you talking about Judaism or Christianity?
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27-08-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:31 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  I think the sensible thing to do is rather than trying to speak for what everyone who may call themselves a christian believes, just point out what the Bible teaches. There are liberal 'christians' who do not believe the Bible at all. There are other Christians that make the Bible fit how they want to live, like the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement. I would be a long time posting if i had to quote everyone's views, better to quote the source I think.

The POINT of your OP was that atheism was *costing* something.
Prove it. Provide a peer reviewed study of why people trade belief systems. You can't and you won't.

The fact is there are 33,000 sects of Christians. You all think YOU ALONE possess the "truth".

So why exactly are you here ? You think you can assert nonsense and get no push-back ? I know more about your religion and the Bible than you do.
You can here to discuss what exactly ?

Hey Bucky!

Thats a bold claim that you know more about the Bible and Christianity than I do. Are you sure about that? Even when you know nothing about me? It seems like the kind of over statement of someone who possessing almost none of the entirety of knowledge saying there definitely is no God. A bit fool hardy perhaps.
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27-08-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: The cost of atheism
(27-08-2014 09:41 AM)ChristianMan Wrote:  
(27-08-2014 09:17 AM)pablo Wrote:  As long as she doesn't do anything the church frowns on, abortion for example.


Why and how do you think treating a person as less than equal because of their gender is right anywhere in the world? Wouldn't the Eastern world also be a product of their society?


It is not obviously against nature, homosexuality occurs across many species.
How, exactly, is it "bad for people's individual health"?
Gay adoption is not bad for society, (unless fewer orphans is bad) it is however, bad for the church. Gay couples are less likely to be Christians, their children are then less likely to be raised, or become Christians. This means it hurts the church's main concerns, money and power.
As far as propagation of the species, there are roughly 7 billion of us, we don't really need a couple billion more do we?

Actually the church is very supportive of those who have abortions. You don't have to support the killing of the unborn in order to support those who suffer the tragedy of going through with such a thing.

So secondly your basis for saying everyone should be equal is that you think so. Well there are large parts of the world doesn't think so. That's kind of a problem for your atheism. I think your missing the elephant in the room.

On the one hand you want to destroy and cut down christianity that has offered objective morality. Objective here meaning outside of us. You are then left with corporate and social evolutionary subjective morality. But having removed objectivity you have no grounds to make and force other nations to agree with you, when they think differently. You have nothing to appeal to. You stand on quicksand.

Tell me plainly, why are you infallibly right about homosexuality and Russia and Islamic States completely wrong? Its rhetorical, as you have no answer.

It's "you're missing", not your. Hmm, Education much ?
Morality does not come from the gods. Another unsupported assertion. YOU morality is no more "objective" than anyone else's, and has CHANGED along with the morality of the cultures which produced it, and in which is exists.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rah?page=2
Post 19.
The opinions of some REAL scholars on the subject. None of which you can refute.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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