The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
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05-07-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 11:35 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(05-07-2016 11:30 AM)u196533 Wrote:  Apples and Oranges - The geocentric model was a belief without data. It was not a basic law of science.
If something violates the Laws of Physics, that is the definition of supernatural. If the statue of liberty started singing and dancing (and it was determined not to be an illusion) people would start looking toward the supernatural. If you could show me inanimate objects lowering entropy and increasing energy spontaneously, then maybe it aint supernatural.

I don't think you understand what spontaneously means. You have yet to show an example of anything increasing energy without that energy being added from a source external to the system in question. Nothing at all about the chemical processes involved in living organisms violates any laws of physics.

The energy comes from an external source of course. The source of the energy is irrelevant. Chemical reactions in which energy is absorbed and entropy is lowered will not happen just by putting the chemicals together. The reactions will not take place without an outside force driving them to do so.
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05-07-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
At work.

*Raises hand*

Why is it a commpelling argument?

Also, perhaps a review of my questions?

Will be able to post better at home with keyboard.
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05-07-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 11:35 AM)u196533 Wrote:  That movie is old. Please look into the latest research on abiogenesis. If you still think it is plausible, fine. Then at least you will be able to defend your beliefs in your own words without having to point to an old outdated video.

So age is a negative characteristic?

Old beliefs are superseded by newer understanding?

Consider

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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05-07-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 09:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-07-2016 08:21 AM)u196533 Wrote:  Not true. Abiogenesis relies on chemical system acquiring self preservation.

A fine example of "not even wrong". Facepalm

Quote:Chemical will always lower energy and increase entropy when left to themselves. Living things take on energy to increase entropy. A violation of chemistry is supernatural.

But they are never left to themselves. They exist in an environment rich with energy, with more being added all day long.

Your understanding of chemistry is simply wrong.

It is you who does not understand the chemistry. Having energy available does not mean a reaction will occur. If a reaction increases entropy it will. (Heat a gas and see it expand.) But it won't if the entropy is decreased.
Imagine a bomb explosion being reversed. It would never happen spontaneously.
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05-07-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 11:41 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(05-07-2016 11:35 AM)u196533 Wrote:  That movie is old. Please look into the latest research on abiogenesis. If you still think it is plausible, fine. Then at least you will be able to defend your beliefs in your own words without having to point to an old outdated video.

So age is a negative characteristic?

Old beliefs are superseded by newer understanding?

Consider

Look at the current research. The last time there was anything really positive in abiogenesis was back in the 50s when Miller found a way to make amino acids. Even that is suspect. The more we learn about biochemistry, the more abiogenesis becomes a pipe dream.
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05-07-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 11:35 AM)u196533 Wrote:  
(05-07-2016 11:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Except you can't and you didn't. You're incompetent.
I'll take a Nobel laureate over the likes of you any day.
You're clearly here to push the BS of creationism.

"nucleic acids are unstable outside of a cell"
Hahahaha. They exist INSIDE of cells, and replicate, and promote protein synthesis there. We don't need them to be "stable outside of cells". That is the MOST idiotic statement.
He explained how membranes formed, 9or could have formed).

You have not made ANY specific refutations of his specific chemistry.


ALL your bullshit boils down to "we don't know, therefore GAWD".

That movie is old. Please look into the latest research on abiogenesis. If yiou still think it is plausible, fine. Then at least you will be able to defend your beliefs in your own words without having to point to an old outdated video. When I look into it, it is implausible. Then when you layer on the chemistry/thermodynamic forces AGIANST life forming, it is a compelling argument.

...except we know that life formed, because here we are. The only question is how it happened. Is "a magic man up in the sky did it" the best you can do for an explanation?
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05-07-2016, 11:49 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 11:46 AM)u196533 Wrote:  
(05-07-2016 11:41 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  So age is a negative characteristic?

Old beliefs are superseded by newer understanding?

Consider

Look at the current research. The last time there was anything really positive in abiogenesis was back in the 50s when Miller found a way to make amino acids. Even that is suspect. The more we learn about biochemistry, the more abiogenesis becomes a pipe dream.



The more we learn through science, the more religion becomes a pipe dream.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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05-07-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
At work.

*Raises hand again*

Am pretty sure I read a rescent article ( Yeah, New Scientist... but still. Blush ) and that some one previously mentioned about research regarding 'Lippid fats'?

Consider

Please, correct if in error.
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05-07-2016, 11:51 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 08:14 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

I have also read ( I make no claims about understanding Tongue ) Mr Kraus' book and the previous poster is right in that he mentions both things coming into existance from noothing both in 'From space/time' as well as 'From [Nothing]'.

Am sure others with acces to more time and keyboard will he along to adress points.

My comment is I see naught more than 'Comments from credulity' from u196533.
Please look closely at Kruas' book. There is an energy density field. He even uses the words "well almost nothing" toward the end of the book to keep from being intellectually dishonest.

My argument related to life is not an argument of incredulity. It is an argument of impossibility. Life violates the laws of chemical thermodynamics.
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05-07-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(05-07-2016 11:50 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

*Raises hand again*

Am pretty sure I read a rescent article ( Yeah, New Scientist... but still. Blush ) and that some one previously mentioned about research regarding 'Lippid fats'?

Consider

Please, correct if in error.

I'd be willing to read them. There is bound to be some research that MIGHT explain one small step in a process that requires thousands of steps. However, if there was any serious breakthrough really worth digging into, it be on the news.
The fact that people are getting serious about Panspermia speaks volumes.
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