The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
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27-07-2016, 04:43 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
Sorry that was meant to be funny.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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27-07-2016, 04:45 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 12:10 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 11:01 AM)u196533 Wrote:  There is no difference in the atoms. However, when they are assembled into a living organism they seek energy in order to lower entropy in an act of self preservation.

Please explain why and how atoms suddenly "seek" when they are assembled into... Big Grin
Like, when i drink a glass of water, when exactly do they start to behave differently, and why, and how? How do those atoms "sense" they are part of a living organism now? Where is the distinction between life and nolife anyhow? Are you saying that suddenly the thermodynamic laws dont apply to those atoms anymore when they "enter" a life form? Consider
If the atoms behave differently (in animated matter), then this means we havent understood a fundamental part of their behaviour in nature. Have you consulted any particle physicist about this yet? You may have hints/evidence for an additional (or two) fundamental forces of nature. Smartass What properties of atoms (leptons & baryons) have we missed so far according to your hypothesis, so that they behave in an unknown way when being part of an animated object?

What about elements like......Plutonium. Its not only radioactive but one of the most poisonous substances we know.
When i swallow Plutonium, and when it becomes part of me....is it also trying to lower my entropy in order to act in self preservation ....while it is killing me with its poisonous effects on the rest of my body? Consider

What about noble gases? They hardly interact with other elements at all. What if they become being part of living matter. What happens when i inhale Helium because i am a scuba diver? Should Helium then not try to help me lower my entropy? Why doesnt it do so (i guess)? Is there a difference between helium in my lungs and helium in my blood? That should be the difference between being part of my animated body and not being so, doesnt it?

And finally:
For the sake of the argument, lets asusme you are right, and animated matter indeed cannot be explained by thermodynamic laws. Maybe we have to adapt those laws because you, like Einstein has found an additional aspect of Newtons laws of gravity, may have just found an additional aspect to thermodynamics. Why assume the supernatural first and stop there? Physicists didnt assume "supernatural" when they had data inconsitent with Newtons laws. They kept investigating until a better theory was found that fits the data, until today.

Maybe we dont have to assume a god, but you are about to win a nobel prize soon.

I have no idea why living things maintain lower entropy. The fact that only living things do points to some unknown force that only acts on living things. Life is an emergent property. Science, being reductionistic, can't explain it.
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27-07-2016, 04:46 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 12:11 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 11:33 AM)u196533 Wrote:  The mind boggling complexity of life suggests intelligence.

Ever heard of the infinite monkey theorem?

Yes. However, my argument is based on the belief that abiogenesis could not have happened naturally. The complexity of life is a secondary concept.
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27-07-2016, 04:52 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 12:20 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 11:16 AM)u196533 Wrote:  I don't pray to a personal God, but I acknowledge a Creator.
It is logical to assume that whatever Created the universe and the laws of Physics exists outside of the universe, and is not constrained by the laws of Physics within our universe.

It's not logical. At all. It commits the fallacy of the stolen concept to speak of or look for a cause of the universe. One can imagine that there is a force or being that exists outside the universe and that is outside the physics within but the imaginary is not real and does not actually exists. The only viable starting point for knowledge is existence since it is conceptually irreducible. Starting with anything other than existence means starting with non-existence. Starting with non-existence and then positing a cause for existence makes use of the concept "cause" while denying a concept it logically depends on, "existence". This is the fallacy of the stolen concept and it is the fallacy that theism starts with. A worldview based on a fallacious starting point can not fail to fail.
The obvious flaw in your reasoning is it assumes that our known universe is all that there is in existence. Nobody has any evidence either way.
However, the 1st Law of Thermo states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore it is not unreasonable to think that something created the energy in our universe.
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27-07-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 12:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 11:33 AM)u196533 Wrote:  I see no other explanation for chemicals defying the entropic drive to equilibrium.
When there is a drive to decompose, I see no explanation for the organization to begin with. Only atoms in living systems exhibit that behavior.

Atoms don't "decompose". OMG are you stupid, (or uneducated). Atoms in living systems work EXACTLY as they do outside living systems. It's why your body works at all. http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/solut/solut-4.html It's how your blood transports chemicals and energy and sugar.
It's why your heart beats, it's why your kidneys work.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-bo...t-beat.htm
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-informa...atomy.aspx

Can't your god(s) send someone here with a brain, and some basic education ?
Your problem, is you have NO education AT ALL in biological systems.
Chemicals "defy" nothing.
What does "defy", is your brain. Stupidity at your level is incompatible with life. How is it you are alive, and get your socks on in the morning, "u" ?

Actually radioactive atoms decompose. I am not stating that individual atoms decompose. Complex molecules and systems decompose into their constituent simpler molecules and atoms.

My argument is not based on biology. It appears that is what you know. (All u have is a hammer so everything looks like a nail.)

It is based on pre-biology/abiogenesis.
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27-07-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 12:26 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 12:26 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  How can you claim to have come to the conclusion "life is supernatural" by using science, when science is the investigation of natural penomena?

*bump*

You seem to have forgotten to adress my concern.

If something defies the laws of science, then by definition it is supernatural.
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27-07-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 02:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I still can't parse "beyond the remit of science"? Science is unable to afford the tithe required? The cost of admission? Bad credit? Behind on monthly payments? What?

He was just using fancy words to say science can't explain the creation of the universe.
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27-07-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 12:08 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 11:33 AM)u196533 Wrote:  IMHO, the evidence clearly suggests that some unknown force is responsible for life. I see no other explanation for chemicals defying the entropic drive to equilibrium.
When there is a drive to decompose, I see no explanation for the organization to begin with. Only atoms in living systems exhibit that behavior.

The fact that it only seems to act on living organisms suggests that it is not some other force that has yet to be discovered.

The mind boggling complexity of life suggests intelligence.

“IMHO” has no place in science. Either you can prove your hypothesis or you can’t.

Argument from Incredulity or Argument from Ignorance does not make for a compelling hypothesis. Drinking Beverage

Whenever someone proves abiogensis, I'll be able to prove it didn't happen naturally. Until then I can only apply reasoning.
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27-07-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 04:35 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 12:08 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  “IMHO” has no place in science. Either you can prove your hypothesis or you can’t.

Argument from Incredulity or Argument from Ignorance does not make for a compelling hypothesis. Drinking Beverage

I admit is is kinda the chicken or the egg. If you could prove abiogenesis, then I could prove it could not have happened naturally. Since you can't prove abiogenesis, I only have logic and reasoning, but no evidence. That's the rub.

This is where you and I differ. I say we don’t know yet and you say gawd.
To most of us here logic and reasoning leaves us with questions yet to be answered. You on the other hand are like our ancestors when the ground shook and lightning bolts came down from the sky, ignorant of why but willing to inteject a SUPER-natural explanation based not on evidence but human imagination.

You would think that in this day and age where we have a method of parsing out fact from fancy by way of the scientific method people would stop holding on to fairy tales. There are scientific studies showing why this is still so. Dr. Glick at Columbia Center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research, calls belief systems “societal pain relievers.”

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-3...houli.html

A good read to dissuade you from the god of the gaps argument you are holding on to is Carl Sagan’s book A Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, you would do well to read it.

“All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - an yet it is the most precious thing we have.” ~ Albert Einstein

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-07-2016, 05:27 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 04:52 PM)u196533 Wrote:  However, the 1st Law of Thermo states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore it is not unreasonable to think that something created the energy in our universe.

For the umpteenth time, this isn’t an isolated system. In practice, perfectly isolated systems cannot exist. All systems transfer energy to their environment through radiation no matter how well insulated they are.

"The first law of thermodynamics allows for many possible states of a system to exist, but only certain states are found to exist in nature. The second law of thermodynamics (entropy) helps to explain this observation.” ~ NASA

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/thermo1.html

If you have issue with any of this please call NASA.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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