The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
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27-07-2016, 10:26 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 06:59 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 06:11 PM)u196533 Wrote:  As soon as someone tells me that the laws of thermodynamics only apply to isolated systems, I know they got their "science" from the internet.

So. You are smarter and/or more knowledgeable than the folks at NASA?

Then, in the same breath, you criticize us for getting science "from the internet" while you lecture us about SCIENCE on the INTERNET.

Exactly how fucking stupid are you???

For a man of science I surely would have thought he was acquainted with NASA. Consider

Laugh out load

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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27-07-2016, 10:26 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 09:51 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 08:05 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.


Um... I'm pretty sure neuro-scientists and entomologist would/will disagree with you on that point. Just to name a couple.

Thumbsup

Neuro scientists cannot explain how a brain created thoughts. I don't understand where you are going with entomologist.

Because there are emergent properties at the population level of community organisms as well as other levels across biology.

I'm just not sure where you still are coming from with your omniscience levels of knowledge claims.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-07-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 09:47 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 08:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You're not "a man of science".
Science can explain behavior (self-preservation), and consciousness, and life. You just don't know how it's done, as you went to school decades ago, and lost touch with current science years and years ago.

Explain it. Just start with self preservation. It is not even in the literature associated with evolution. Not why self preservation arose since that is obvious. HOW.

Sorry, that would mean we would have to quote stuff from the internet or even, gasp, books.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-07-2016, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2016 10:35 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
“I suggest you never attempt to synthesize nitroglycerin." Drinking Beverage


Damnit Chas, don’t tip him off!

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-07-2016, 10:38 PM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
Bump. Still waiting for an answer u.

(27-07-2016 12:02 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 11:16 AM)u196533 Wrote:  It is logical to assume that whatever Created the universe and the laws of Physics exists outside of the universe, and is not constrained by the laws of Physics within our universe.

It is completely illogical. That you don’t see that shows great cognitive dissonance or lack of understanding of the very physical laws you seem so enamored with.

As for your creator being outside of physical laws please provide proof of said being other than “feels”.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-07-2016, 12:00 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 04:45 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 12:10 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please explain why and how atoms suddenly "seek" when they are assembled into... Big Grin
Like, when i drink a glass of water, when exactly do they start to behave differently, and why, and how? How do those atoms "sense" they are part of a living organism now? Where is the distinction between life and nolife anyhow? Are you saying that suddenly the thermodynamic laws dont apply to those atoms anymore when they "enter" a life form? Consider
If the atoms behave differently (in animated matter), then this means we havent understood a fundamental part of their behaviour in nature. Have you consulted any particle physicist about this yet? You may have hints/evidence for an additional (or two) fundamental forces of nature. Smartass What properties of atoms (leptons & baryons) have we missed so far according to your hypothesis, so that they behave in an unknown way when being part of an animated object?

What about elements like......Plutonium. Its not only radioactive but one of the most poisonous substances we know.
When i swallow Plutonium, and when it becomes part of me....is it also trying to lower my entropy in order to act in self preservation ....while it is killing me with its poisonous effects on the rest of my body? Consider

What about noble gases? They hardly interact with other elements at all. What if they become being part of living matter. What happens when i inhale Helium because i am a scuba diver? Should Helium then not try to help me lower my entropy? Why doesnt it do so (i guess)? Is there a difference between helium in my lungs and helium in my blood? That should be the difference between being part of my animated body and not being so, doesnt it?

And finally:
For the sake of the argument, lets asusme you are right, and animated matter indeed cannot be explained by thermodynamic laws. Maybe we have to adapt those laws because you, like Einstein has found an additional aspect of Newtons laws of gravity, may have just found an additional aspect to thermodynamics. Why assume the supernatural first and stop there? Physicists didnt assume "supernatural" when they had data inconsitent with Newtons laws. They kept investigating until a better theory was found that fits the data, until today.

Maybe we dont have to assume a god, but you are about to win a nobel prize soon.

I have no idea why living things maintain lower entropy. The fact that only living things do points to some unknown force that only acts on living things.

Crystals exhibit a high degree of order, therefore lower entropy.

Quote:Life is an emergent property. Science, being reductionistic, can't explain it.

Science is not only reductionist - that is a gross over-simplification.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-07-2016, 12:01 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 04:46 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 12:11 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Ever heard of the infinite monkey theorem?

Yes. However, my argument is based on the belief that abiogenesis could not have happened naturally. The complexity of life is a secondary concept.

Your belief is not convincing. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-07-2016, 12:06 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 06:54 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 06:39 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Never is a long time.

So your answer to as yet explained processes is fairy dust? You certainly don’t sound like any man of science I’ve ever met. No, you are quite happy in your ignorance and wish to remain so.

"[In response to the view beholden by some religious people that God is the cause of various inexplicable events...] If that's how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on. So, just be ready for that to happen, if that's how you want to come at the problem. So that’s just simply the God of the gaps argument.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

As to your pot shot of accusing me of getting my information from the internet, well I suppose I could have also been accused of getting my information from books a few short decades ago. Gasp

Facepalm
Science cannot explain emergent properties. Never has. Never will.

Your evidence for this is ... ? Consider

No, right - it's your belief. Your incredulity is not an argument.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-07-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 10:14 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 10:07 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

(O_o)

Surely you jest? Or perhaps misspoke?

Neurologists currently do know how neurons work to creat thoughts.

Perhaps you are intimating that there is no clear path in the evolution of 'Brain' like development? Consider

My comment about entomologists pointed out/to the emergent complex behaviour of social insects.
Something that has evolved at least three different times.

Thumbsup
Not true. They cannot look at a brain/neural network and explain HOW/WHY a mind emerged from the constituents.

Similarly entomologists can describe complex behavior, but could not predict it from looking at individuals and surmising behavior of a large group.

Do you even know what an entomologist is? You don't appear to. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-07-2016, 12:10 AM
RE: The creation of the universe is "beyond the remit of science".
(27-07-2016 04:45 PM)u196533 Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 12:10 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please explain why and how atoms suddenly "seek" when they are assembled into... Big Grin
Like, when i drink a glass of water, when exactly do they start to behave differently, and why, and how? How do those atoms "sense" they are part of a living organism now? Where is the distinction between life and nolife anyhow? Are you saying that suddenly the thermodynamic laws dont apply to those atoms anymore when they "enter" a life form? Consider
If the atoms behave differently (in animated matter), then this means we havent understood a fundamental part of their behaviour in nature. Have you consulted any particle physicist about this yet? You may have hints/evidence for an additional (or two) fundamental forces of nature. Smartass What properties of atoms (leptons & baryons) have we missed so far according to your hypothesis, so that they behave in an unknown way when being part of an animated object?

What about elements like......Plutonium. Its not only radioactive but one of the most poisonous substances we know.
When i swallow Plutonium, and when it becomes part of me....is it also trying to lower my entropy in order to act in self preservation ....while it is killing me with its poisonous effects on the rest of my body? Consider

What about noble gases? They hardly interact with other elements at all. What if they become being part of living matter. What happens when i inhale Helium because i am a scuba diver? Should Helium then not try to help me lower my entropy? Why doesnt it do so (i guess)? Is there a difference between helium in my lungs and helium in my blood? That should be the difference between being part of my animated body and not being so, doesnt it?

And finally:
For the sake of the argument, lets asusme you are right, and animated matter indeed cannot be explained by thermodynamic laws. Maybe we have to adapt those laws because you, like Einstein has found an additional aspect of Newtons laws of gravity, may have just found an additional aspect to thermodynamics. Why assume the supernatural first and stop there? Physicists didnt assume "supernatural" when they had data inconsitent with Newtons laws. They kept investigating until a better theory was found that fits the data, until today.

Maybe we dont have to assume a god, but you are about to win a nobel prize soon.

I have no idea why living things maintain lower entropy. The fact that only living things do points to some unknown force that only acts on living things. Life is an emergent property. Science, being reductionistic, can't explain it.

I am asking you lots and lots of very specific questions, and this is all you have?

Quote:I have no idea


You dont even acknowledge that your claims are incoherent as i have pointed out in my post? You dont even care about that?

So, please tell me why
Quote:I have no idea why living things maintain lower entropy.
convinces you of a "creator". Facepalm

You are the poster child for a huuuuuuuuuuuge argument from ignorance, and a bad one at that, because regarding that what you cant explain: It either can be explained or your calims are wrong as we have seen.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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