The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
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27-04-2013, 07:16 AM
The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
This was something that I posted once on another thread around 2012. Just thought it might be interesting what thoughts you people have.

As most of us know, there are two main camps when it comes two religion and the end of the world. The first is the "no one knows the day or hour" camp and the second is the " end times are near" camp. So here's a thought. Say that we had two choices.

Choice A: The end times can be known.

Choice B: The end times cannot be known.

If you choose A then when the day comes and goes all people of that religion would cease being religious. They wouldn't use apologetic's to weasel there way out. Rather they would realize that there religion was wrong and cease believing.
However, Choice A does have the risk of those who are devout starting World War 3.

Choice B would mean that the end times could not be known. As such there would be no risk of an end times war. The religious would maintain some non-zero sum relationship with the world since they wouldn't know when their Savior would return.

However, Choice B does mean that some of those religious would continue to get in the way of science and would maintain that we should " teach the alternative". Which for obvious reasons, would restrict growth and development.

So, which would you choose, A or B?

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27-04-2013, 07:41 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
I choose B. Because I know the meaning of "faith", which is a choice made, and for deeply religious people, doesn't need proof and therefore can't be wrong.

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27-04-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
Choose? There is a matter of choice in facts? I don't believe in the "end times", so I wouldn't choose a preference in any case, but it seems silly to even presume there's a choice involved in a matter of fact.

But I think you're totally wrong about the whole "apologetics would come to an end" idea. Anything can be rationalized or self-justified, and in this specific case we don't even have to guess how it could be rationalized... allow me to share a story from M\Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me):

We're told of the research by Dr. Leon Festinger, who infiltrated a doomsday cult. The leader, Marion Keech, told her followers that an alien spaceship would pick her and her followers up on a specific night. When that failed to happen, she proclaimed that the faith of those who believed in her bullshit prophecy had actually saved the world from its destruction, which made them all the more faithful despite the fact that her prophecy totally didn't come true.

So, if the endtimes actually came, don't you think that those who denied that it would happen would simply continue to deny it? I'm pretty sure they could.

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28-04-2013, 04:49 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
(27-04-2013 07:16 AM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  This was something that I posted once on another thread around 2012. Just thought it might be interesting what thoughts you people have.

As most of us know, there are two main camps when it comes two religion and the end of the world. The first is the "no one knows the day or hour" camp and the second is the " end times are near" camp. So here's a thought. Say that we had two choices.

Choice A: The end times can be known.

Choice B: The end times cannot be known.

If you choose A then when the day comes and goes all people of that religion would cease being religious. They wouldn't use apologetic's to weasel there way out. Rather they would realize that there religion was wrong and cease believing.
However, Choice A does have the risk of those who are devout starting World War 3.

Choice B would mean that the end times could not be known. As such there would be no risk of an end times war. The religious would maintain some non-zero sum relationship with the world since they wouldn't know when their Savior would return.

However, Choice B does mean that some of those religious would continue to get in the way of science and would maintain that we should " teach the alternative". Which for obvious reasons, would restrict growth and development.

So, which would you choose, A or B?

D. None of the above.

End-times? Seriously?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-04-2013, 06:46 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
The only "end times" I would accept would be 1) World War 3 with all nukes flying, 2) Asteroid impact that is an ELE (extinction level event) 3) A local gamma ray burst or 4) Millions of years from now when our Sun goes nova

Of those, the Sun going nova can be known, but it's millions of years away. I don't think knowing that will have any impact on how we live our lives.
Predicted end times have come and gone for the past 2000 years or more. Hasn't caused anyone I know to be less religious.

I pick E) - Enjoy your life

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28-04-2013, 07:17 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
I think everyone here didn't get what I was getting at. This was a hypothetical, it wasn't trying to take a realistic view of what would happen. I'm not trying to say that if a prediction failed it would lead to people loosing there faith I was saying that given the two possibilities above, which one would you choose, the riskier one that might lead to a WW3 or the less riskier one that resulted in no WW3 but maintained a pseudoscientific perspective when it came to things like evolution.

Don't take this thread that seriously.

Chas
Quote:End-times? Seriously?

No, not seriously. I'm not advocating anything on a serious note here. What I'm doing is asking a hypothetical question. Given the Two scenario's, which would you choose. Dodgy

Starcrash
Quote:Choose? There is a matter of choice in facts?

Maybe I need to make it a little more clear. I'm in no way am advocating that this is what is going to happen, nor am I advocating that this is meant to be realistic. That's why I called it a thought experiment. It's meant to be an experiment, in your head

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28-04-2013, 07:31 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
(28-04-2013 07:17 AM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  I think everyone here didn't get what I was getting at.

Maybe I need to make it a little more clear. I'm in no way am advocating that this is what is going to happen, nor am I advocating that this is meant to be realistic. That's why I called it a thought experiment. It's meant to be an experiment, in your head

Sometimes its frustrating to start what you may think as a good thread on this forum. Weeping

Remember you are dealing with a grossly over-reactive, shoot-first ask questions later, egocentric, hedonistic, baby-eating and supremely skeptical bunch here! Plus some of us are dyslexic, don't comprehend well and are partially delusional. Big Grin

Now...why the hell do you think end times are just around the corner?!?! What kind of crap are you spewing here? Laughat

Throughout history conversions happen at the point of a sword, deconversions at the point of a pen - FC

I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain in Eruption
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28-04-2013, 08:09 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
Part of the problem about what yer getting at, is that you ain't going nowhere. Only B is scriptural, rendering the point moot. Unless, of course, you're a theist with an agenda. Consider

And "end-times" is, well, just dumb. Big Grin

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28-04-2013, 08:12 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
(28-04-2013 07:31 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(28-04-2013 07:17 AM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  I think everyone here didn't get what I was getting at.

Maybe I need to make it a little more clear. I'm in no way am advocating that this is what is going to happen, nor am I advocating that this is meant to be realistic. That's why I called it a thought experiment. It's meant to be an experiment, in your head

Sometimes its frustrating to start what you may think as a good thread on this forum. Weeping

Remember you are dealing with a grossly over-reactive, shoot-first ask questions later, egocentric, hedonistic, baby-eating and supremely skeptical bunch here! Plus some of us are dyslexic, don't comprehend well and are partially delusional. Big Grin

Now...why the hell do you think end times are just around the corner?!?! What kind of crap are you spewing here? Laughat

I think next time I need to make a little notice ahead of time to show my intentions. Something like,

Warning. This is not a realistic view of the universe. I'm in no way suggesting that the concepts in the following sentences represent my views, nor represent views that are plausible. Do not take these next sentences on a serious note.

You think that might help?Consider

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28-04-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: The end times dilemma. A thought experiment.
(28-04-2013 08:09 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Part of the problem about what yer getting at, is that you ain't going nowhere. Only B is scriptural, rendering the point moot. Unless, of course, you're a theist with an agenda. Consider

And "end-times" is, well, just dumb. Big Grin

Well, I see your point in that it's not going anywhere but all I wanted was to make a "what if" scenario. Like, what if gravity stopped right at this moment, or what if animals suddenly could talk, or what if we didn't have so many nutcases in the world. It's not meant to be a this is going to happen, kinda thing. It's meant to be a think of the craziest thing that you could imagine, kinda thing.

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