The fall of man and Christian self loathing
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05-09-2015, 05:44 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2015 06:07 AM by Rkane819.)
The fall of man and Christian self loathing
I've posted here a half dozen times about the ongoing saga with my now deeply committed Christian wife and your comments and advice have been immeasurably helpful, so thank you all again for that.

My question/concern is about the idea that we live in a "fallen world" due to original sin and its effects on us. When my wife began attending church again a year or so ago she would come home talking about how awesome God's grace is, some great teaching of Jesus to love your neighbor or the good Samartian story. I'm fine with all of that warm, fuzzy stuff.

About 2 months ago though she joined a Women's life group that delves deeper and instead of coming home gushing about all the good stuff, peppered into her rhetoric are things like: "Sadness exists because we live in a fallen world" and "if I can start giving more of my life to God then I'll be a better person" (insinuating she is not a good person now, which she definitely is). This concerns me. I never retort back with anything when these statements are made, so far I have let them all go unchallenged. Also, she has suffered from depression before so this doubly worries me that she is being told that she might be broken, stained or un-whole. The idea that we are born "tainted" I believe is one of the most vile and insidious thoughts ever imagined, it makes me physically sick to my stomach if I think about it for too long.

To the former, devout theists on here, should I be concerned with this change in speech? Did you have severe feelings of unworthiness or brokenness as a Christian?
If so, what process did you use to come out of this state?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
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05-09-2015, 05:58 AM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
I had those feelings, but they didn't resolve--to an extent, they have never resolved entirely--until I left Christianity and decided that sin and being fallen are concepts that do not apply to me.

The general idea is to make people feel so unworthy that they will accept all bad things that happen to them, deserved or not, as their fault for being such awful beings. Eventually they may see a reward, but not while they're on earth. That mindset lets the powerful treat the weak unspeakably with little fear of retaliation.

God as abusive boyfriend (through his proxy the church people) is moving into step two. Step one was flattery, charm, and the "gift" of salvation. Step two is pointing out every flaw and making innocent things into flaws, while presenting himself as flawless, creating a sense of shame that will lead to abject obedience.
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05-09-2015, 05:59 AM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
Sin, like god, is a man made invention.

The whole "man is fallen" thingie is an invented problem to give the devout a fix for something that never broken in the first place.

Think of it - if there's no god (and there isn't) then when man is good, he's good of his own accord.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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05-09-2015, 06:57 AM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
Christian theology is pretty much masochistic and shaming, not to mention sexist and incoherent.

I'm sorry for your situation, but I have no help to offer as I would simply not put up with her behavior.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-09-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
I had the Christian guilt thing. I was told the same from my church. On top of just feeling I could never measure up to God-- I also felt tremendous guilt every time I sinned. I felt as though I let God down. I also struggled with the church's views on same sex marriage because I have many friends who I adore who are in love with a same sex partner. I could not understand God's issue with two people loving each other. This view of God and the church really upset me. I do think the mentality of the church can be very detrimental to the mental health of an individual. I would be concerned about your wife's view of herself after the church gets through with her.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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05-09-2015, 08:27 AM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
I suppose original sin was invented to explain how a just god would create a world with so much suffering. The answer: he didn't: People made the world a terrible place by disobeying god. Moving from the O.T. to the N.T., and god is supposed to be not only just, but kind and loving and compassionate, so what was likely a less-important point in Judaism becomes a critical and central one in Christianity. Of course, it's all idiocy. Because a kind and loving god would not have punished the entire world and thousands of generations of people, and all the animals, just because two people broke one rule. Because if god is god, it was HIS choice in the first place that Adam's sin had to be visited on the entire world. And making his own son be crucified to atone for Adam's sin just makes no sense at all.

But you'll never convince a moron of that, and you have to be a moron to accept the whole story of original sin and Jesus's redemption of mankind.

So all I can say is, if you cannot get your wife into therapy for her religious delusions (and you probably can't) then you're stuck with it. Assuming she knows you're an atheist, any time she says she thinks she's not a good enough person, you can tell her you don't see it that way, and you think she's as good as any person ever is.

I'd never be able to marry a god-believer because I cannot keep my mouth shut. I call b.s. when I see it, and that pretty much queers my chances with believers.

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05-09-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
(05-09-2015 05:44 AM)Rkane819 Wrote:  My question/concern is about the idea that we live in a "fallen world" due to original sin and its effects on us. When my wife began attending church again a year or so ago she would come home talking about how awesome God's grace is, some great teaching of Jesus to love your neighbor or the good Samartian story. I'm fine with all of that warm, fuzzy stuff.

About 2 months ago though she joined a Women's life group that delves deeper and instead of coming home gushing about all the good stuff, peppered into her rhetoric are things like: "Sadness exists because we live in a fallen world" and "if I can start giving more of my life to God then I'll be a better person" (insinuating she is not a good person now, which she definitely is).

Have you asked why she feels she's not a good person? Or what it would mean to her to be a better a person"?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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05-09-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
(05-09-2015 05:44 AM)Rkane819 Wrote:  ---
About 2 months ago though she joined a Women's life group that delves deeper and instead of coming home gushing about all the good stuff, peppered into her rhetoric are things like: "Sadness exists because we live in a fallen world" and "if I can start giving more of my life to God then I'll be a better person" (insinuating she is not a good person now, which she definitely is). This concerns me. I never retort back with anything when these statements are made, so far I have let them all go unchallenged. Also, she has suffered from depression before so this doubly worries me that she is being told that she might be broken, stained or un-whole. The idea that we are born "tainted" I believe is one of the most vile and insidious thoughts ever imagined, it makes me physically sick to my stomach if I think about it for too long.
---

Certainly voice your concern directly to her; reinforcement of such a negative self image is disturbing and even dangerous to someone who may be susceptible to depression.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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05-09-2015, 01:02 PM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
Sorry for your misery. I simply couldn't live with someone who viewed the world around them as sinful. I just couldn't. I wish i could give you some sage advice.

Christianity pivots around the fallen man, sin concept. Without that they got nothing.

I loathe Christianity. It's a mentally ill religion.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-09-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: The fall of man and Christian self loathing
Jesusism is all about telling people they are shit. Your wife sounds as if she has gone off the deep end.

These people prefer fantasy to reality.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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