The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
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17-11-2012, 05:59 PM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(17-11-2012 04:08 PM)BnW Wrote:  What's interesting about this debate is how people have such strong opinions without understanding any of the history that got us here. I don't think the Israeli's are saints by any means, but to call them out as the sole cause of the current or even the past, conflicts shows a level of ignorance that is astonishing.

I and I must stand for "Ignorant and Insipid".
hey stupid,europeans travelled to a non-european part of the world and decided to just take land simply because they felt like they deserved it, very similar many other european adventures around the world.

And most of these adventures including the one in Israel isn't liked by the people who lived there before, are you really that stupid to be surprised that a non indiginous group occupying a place is going to be attacked?

I am not saying that it is good that Israelis are attacked, I am saying it is extremely stupid to act like you don't know why they are attacked.

Ironically Israel is implementing the same type of rule that the south african appartheid government implemented, european racists like to mimic each other I guess.
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18-11-2012, 02:40 AM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2012 03:14 AM by shiranl.)
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(17-11-2012 05:59 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(17-11-2012 04:08 PM)BnW Wrote:  What's interesting about this debate is how people have such strong opinions without understanding any of the history that got us here. I don't think the Israeli's are saints by any means, but to call them out as the sole cause of the current or even the past, conflicts shows a level of ignorance that is astonishing.

I and I must stand for "Ignorant and Insipid".
hey stupid,europeans travelled to a non-european part of the world and decided to just take land simply because they felt like they deserved it, very similar many other european adventures around the world.

And most of these adventures including the one in Israel isn't liked by the people who lived there before, are you really that stupid to be surprised that a non indiginous group occupying a place is going to be attacked?

I am not saying that it is good that Israelis are attacked, I am saying it is extremely stupid to act like you don't know why they are attacked.

Ironically Israel is implementing the same type of rule that the south african appartheid government implemented, european racists like to mimic each other I guess.
Travelled? you say it like there was no obvious reason for why we left Europe!!!! before the Holocaust, most Europian Jews WERE NOT Zionist! because they never thought something THAT bad can happen to them. And lets not forget that even before the Zionist movment was established Jewish people went to the land of Israel because in their own lands they were persecuted (look for the First Aliyah), and of course- even before that, a large community of Jewish people were born in Israel and lived there all their lives.

You know what else is extremely stupid? not knowing history, and nevertheless, expressing an opinion about it.

And the lie about the apartheid isn't worth responding.
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18-11-2012, 08:47 AM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(18-11-2012 02:40 AM)shiranl Wrote:  
(17-11-2012 05:59 PM)I and I Wrote:  hey stupid,europeans travelled to a non-european part of the world and decided to just take land simply because they felt like they deserved it, very similar many other european adventures around the world.

And most of these adventures including the one in Israel isn't liked by the people who lived there before, are you really that stupid to be surprised that a non indiginous group occupying a place is going to be attacked?

I am not saying that it is good that Israelis are attacked, I am saying it is extremely stupid to act like you don't know why they are attacked.

Ironically Israel is implementing the same type of rule that the south african appartheid government implemented, european racists like to mimic each other I guess.
Travelled? you say it like there was no obvious reason for why we left Europe!!!! before the Holocaust, most Europian Jews WERE NOT Zionist! because they never thought something THAT bad can happen to them. And lets not forget that even before the Zionist movment was established Jewish people went to the land of Israel because in their own lands they were persecuted (look for the First Aliyah), and of course- even before that, a large community of Jewish people were born in Israel and lived there all their lives.

You know what else is extremely stupid? not knowing history, and nevertheless, expressing an opinion about it.

And the lie about the apartheid isn't worth responding.
I hope you are ok Shiranl

Actually it's not a lie, the Israeli government towards the end of the south african racist apartheid government was alone in the countries that still supported the racist government in 1987. Even when most countries had enough of the racist government in South Africa. Sounds like they didn't teach you that in Israeli schools?

The migration of jews out of europe was a plan from the late 1800's other territories were considered, even Uganda, Zionist groups considered using parts of the then brittish colony to create a jewish state. The transfer plan to get jews out of germany was supported by both Zionists and Nazis before WW2 started.

Reading about the zionist considering Uganda, one of the reasons they didn't choose Uganda was because they people that went to look at the land were afraid of lions. Are you sure you want to travel to Africa? lol I am kidding.
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18-11-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
They are taking out Hamas (or smashing them up) before they move onto Iran.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

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18-11-2012, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2012 10:44 AM by shiranl.)
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(18-11-2012 08:47 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 02:40 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Travelled? you say it like there was no obvious reason for why we left Europe!!!! before the Holocaust, most Europian Jews WERE NOT Zionist! because they never thought something THAT bad can happen to them. And lets not forget that even before the Zionist movment was established Jewish people went to the land of Israel because in their own lands they were persecuted (look for the First Aliyah), and of course- even before that, a large community of Jewish people were born in Israel and lived there all their lives.

You know what else is extremely stupid? not knowing history, and nevertheless, expressing an opinion about it.

And the lie about the apartheid isn't worth responding.
I hope you are ok Shiranl

Actually it's not a lie, the Israeli government towards the end of the south african racist apartheid government was alone in the countries that still supported the racist government in 1987. Even when most countries had enough of the racist government in South Africa. Sounds like they didn't teach you that in Israeli schools?

The migration of jews out of europe was a plan from the late 1800's other territories were considered, even Uganda, Zionist groups considered using parts of the then brittish colony to create a jewish state. The transfer plan to get jews out of germany was supported by both Zionists and Nazis before WW2 started.

Reading about the zionist considering Uganda, one of the reasons they didn't choose Uganda was because they people that went to look at the land were afraid of lions. Are you sure you want to travel to Africa? lol I am kidding.

So...because we had relations with SA, it means automatically we're apartheid too?

And maybe I should tell you my personal story in order for you to understand it is not so simple as you try to picture it. My grandmother was born in Germany. Her father fought for Germany in WW1 (and lost his hearing as a result), when Hitler came to power he really didn't trust him, and uprooted his entire family to South Africa in 1937. my grandmother took the ship from Italy to SA when she was 12 years old, getting there with only few marks. My grandma and her family, being white-skinned, had a relative good life in SA. She played tennis and swom, she ice-skated and was active in the Red Cross and the Zionist movement. She had normal life and normal childhood, more normal then my own life and childhood. I can't imagine what her life could have been if she stayed in Germany. I don't know if I would be here to tell you that if my grandmother didn't leave Germany. In the end, Apartheid South Africa saved my family's life (and many other South African Jewish people's life) , and was among the few countries who were willing to do so. So, even if it was cruel regime (and I'm not saying it wasn't) for the South African community in Israel that regime was a LIFE SAVING regime. Would you turn your back to someone who saved your life, even if it was from the wrong reason?

What, do you think the Holocaust was a one-time event? the Jewish people suffered persecution for as long as history goes. Guess what- if your ancestors didn't harrassed and kill my ancestors, we wouldn't have this discussion. You can't blame a person or a nation trying to defend themselves!
costume made for people who think like you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY3QpWvYz...re=related
Yes, and Uganda was considered by Hertzel (which was the founder of the Zionist movment, not the king of it).....so what?

I'm glad you're worried about me (not enough to consider I might deserve a self determination, but well....) for you and the rest of this forum members who might be interested in my regard- I'm not living in the south of Israel, not even in Tel Aviv. I'm OK (If I wasn't, believe me I wouldn't have the time to write you those posts between air siren to another).
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18-11-2012, 10:47 AM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(18-11-2012 10:17 AM)shiranl Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 08:47 AM)I and I Wrote:  I hope you are ok Shiranl

Actually it's not a lie, the Israeli government towards the end of the south african racist apartheid government was alone in the countries that still supported the racist government in 1987. Even when most countries had enough of the racist government in South Africa. Sounds like they didn't teach you that in Israeli schools?

The migration of jews out of europe was a plan from the late 1800's other territories were considered, even Uganda, Zionist groups considered using parts of the then brittish colony to create a jewish state. The transfer plan to get jews out of germany was supported by both Zionists and Nazis before WW2 started.

Reading about the zionist considering Uganda, one of the reasons they didn't choose Uganda was because they people that went to look at the land were afraid of lions. Are you sure you want to travel to Africa? lol I am kidding.

So...because we had relations with SA, it means automatically we're apartheid too?

And maybe I should tell you my personal story in order for you to understand it is not so simple as you try to picture it. My grandmother was born in Germany. Her father fought for Germany in WW1 (and lost his hearing as a result), when Hitler came to power he really didn't trust him, and uprooted his entire family to South Africa in 1937. my grandmother took the ship from Italy to SA when she was 12 years old, getting there with only few marks. My grandma and her family, being white-skinned, had a relative good life in SA. She played tennis and swom, she ice-skated and was active in the Red Cross and the Zionist movement. She had normal life and normal childhood, more normal then my own life and childhood. I can't imagine what her life could have been if she stayed in Germany. I don't know if I would be here to tell you that if my grandmother didn't leave Germany. In the end, Apartheid South Africa saved my family's life (and many other South African Jewish people's life) , and was among the few countries who were willing to do so. So, even if it was cruel regime (and I'm not saying it wasn't) for the South African community in Israel that regime was a LIFE SAVING regime. Would you turn your back to someone who saved your life, even if it was from the wrong reason?

What, do you think the Holocaust was a one-time event? the Jewish people suffered persecution for as long as history goes. Guess what- if your ancestors didn't harrassed and kill my ancestors, we wouldn't have this discussion. You can't blame a person or a nation trying to defend themselves!
costume made for people who think like you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY3QpWvYz...re=related
Yes, and Uganda was considered by Hertzel (which was the founder of the Zionist movment, not the king of it).....so what?

I'm glad you're worried about me (not enough to consider I might deserve a self determination, but well....) for you and the rest of this forum members who might be interested in my regard- I'm not living in the south of Israel, not even in Tel Aviv. I'm OK (If I wasn't, believe me I wouldn't have the time to write you those posts between air siren to another).


I hold the currently unpopular opinion that the modern State of Israel was illegally constituted, and the land had been stolen from the rightful owners/occupiers.

The holy books are not land deeds, so cannot be used as justification for taking the land.

You reap what you sow.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-11-2012, 10:51 AM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(18-11-2012 10:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 10:17 AM)shiranl Wrote:  So...because we had relations with SA, it means automatically we're apartheid too?

And maybe I should tell you my personal story in order for you to understand it is not so simple as you try to picture it. My grandmother was born in Germany. Her father fought for Germany in WW1 (and lost his hearing as a result), when Hitler came to power he really didn't trust him, and uprooted his entire family to South Africa in 1937. my grandmother took the ship from Italy to SA when she was 12 years old, getting there with only few marks. My grandma and her family, being white-skinned, had a relative good life in SA. She played tennis and swom, she ice-skated and was active in the Red Cross and the Zionist movement. She had normal life and normal childhood, more normal then my own life and childhood. I can't imagine what her life could have been if she stayed in Germany. I don't know if I would be here to tell you that if my grandmother didn't leave Germany. In the end, Apartheid South Africa saved my family's life (and many other South African Jewish people's life) , and was among the few countries who were willing to do so. So, even if it was cruel regime (and I'm not saying it wasn't) for the South African community in Israel that regime was a LIFE SAVING regime. Would you turn your back to someone who saved your life, even if it was from the wrong reason?

What, do you think the Holocaust was a one-time event? the Jewish people suffered persecution for as long as history goes. Guess what- if your ancestors didn't harrassed and kill my ancestors, we wouldn't have this discussion. You can't blame a person or a nation trying to defend themselves!
costume made for people who think like you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY3QpWvYz...re=related
Yes, and Uganda was considered by Hertzel (which was the founder of the Zionist movment, not the king of it).....so what?

I'm glad you're worried about me (not enough to consider I might deserve a self determination, but well....) for you and the rest of this forum members who might be interested in my regard- I'm not living in the south of Israel, not even in Tel Aviv. I'm OK (If I wasn't, believe me I wouldn't have the time to write you those posts between air siren to another).


I hold the currently unpopular opinion that the modern State of Israel was illegally constituted, and the land had been stolen from the rightful owners/occupiers.

The holy books are not land deeds, so cannot be used as justification for taking the land.

You reap what you sow.
You mean the British? because they occupied the land before Israel was established.
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18-11-2012, 10:57 AM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(18-11-2012 08:47 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 02:40 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Travelled? you say it like there was no obvious reason for why we left Europe!!!! before the Holocaust, most Europian Jews WERE NOT Zionist! because they never thought something THAT bad can happen to them. And lets not forget that even before the Zionist movment was established Jewish people went to the land of Israel because in their own lands they were persecuted (look for the First Aliyah), and of course- even before that, a large community of Jewish people were born in Israel and lived there all their lives.

You know what else is extremely stupid? not knowing history, and nevertheless, expressing an opinion about it.

And the lie about the apartheid isn't worth responding.
I hope you are ok Shiranl

Actually it's not a lie, the Israeli government towards the end of the south african racist apartheid government was alone in the countries that still supported the racist government in 1987. Even when most countries had enough of the racist government in South Africa. Sounds like they didn't teach you that in Israeli schools?

The migration of jews out of europe was a plan from the late 1800's other territories were considered, even Uganda, Zionist groups considered using parts of the then brittish colony to create a jewish state. The transfer plan to get jews out of germany was supported by both Zionists and Nazis before WW2 started.

Reading about the zionist considering Uganda, one of the reasons they didn't choose Uganda was because they people that went to look at the land were afraid of lions. Are you sure you want to travel to Africa? lol I am kidding.
WTF. You think the holocaust was a Jewish conspiracy to take over Israel? You are arguing that Jews are so manipulative and capable of any depravity that they would willingly see millions killed just to convince their own numbers to move to Israel? Antisemitic bigotry like this is precisely why there will be no quick solution to this problem.
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18-11-2012, 11:02 AM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(18-11-2012 10:51 AM)shiranl Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 10:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  I hold the currently unpopular opinion that the modern State of Israel was illegally constituted, and the land had been stolen from the rightful owners/occupiers.

The holy books are not land deeds, so cannot be used as justification for taking the land.

You reap what you sow.
You mean the British? because they occupied the land before Israel was established.
They controlled it politically as a result of World War I and the demise of the Ottoman Empire under a mandate from the League of Nations; they did not settle it.

One can argue that the British Mandate itself was none too legal, but to the victor ...

Neither the League of Nations Mandate nor the U.N. resolution heeded the wishes of those who actually lived there. The original partition plan was never implemented largely due to opposition by Palestinians and other Arabs.

Had the U.N. set up a secular state that respected everyone's rights there might not be the mess there is today.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-11-2012, 11:04 AM
RE: The false equivalency of Israeli apartheid
(18-11-2012 10:57 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(18-11-2012 08:47 AM)I and I Wrote:  I hope you are ok Shiranl

Actually it's not a lie, the Israeli government towards the end of the south african racist apartheid government was alone in the countries that still supported the racist government in 1987. Even when most countries had enough of the racist government in South Africa. Sounds like they didn't teach you that in Israeli schools?

The migration of jews out of europe was a plan from the late 1800's other territories were considered, even Uganda, Zionist groups considered using parts of the then brittish colony to create a jewish state. The transfer plan to get jews out of germany was supported by both Zionists and Nazis before WW2 started.

Reading about the zionist considering Uganda, one of the reasons they didn't choose Uganda was because they people that went to look at the land were afraid of lions. Are you sure you want to travel to Africa? lol I am kidding.
WTF. You think the holocaust was a Jewish conspiracy to take over Israel? You are arguing that Jews are so manipulative and capable of any depravity that they would willingly see millions killed just to convince their own numbers to move to Israel? Antisemitic bigotry like this is precisely why there will be no quick solution to this problem.
Wow, over-reaction, much?

He didn't say that. How did you get that reading?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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