The false gap between reality and perception.
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09-10-2012, 12:10 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 12:07 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 11:14 AM)I and I Wrote:  My last post involved both reality and perception in how they are not separate, proving this i used experience as an example.....next
Perception has to be a subcategory of experience, not an equal category.

What would be helpful to the argument is to recognize the semantic hierarchy of reality and experience - does anybody have anything that would satisfy this type of presentation of 'scientific' facts for assuring ourselves that we are all on the 'same page'?

At a minimum, there would be:
reality -> input to senses -> processing -> input to brain -> processing -> input to consciousness -> processing -> filtering -> comprehension

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2012, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2012 02:38 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(08-10-2012 04:29 PM)I and I Wrote:  The experience of a memory is different because we know it's a memory, the knowledge of it being a memory is part of the experience.

So, memory, perception, and (objective) observation, are forms of experience - correct?

http://www.secularlibrary.com/SLC%203%20HEALTH.html
Secular Library Classification Wrote:300. Experience
301. Sentience
302. Action
303. Observation
304. Emotion
305. Inspiration
306. Memory


Basically, I am going to claim that perception is a subcategory of Observation, and is probably, apart of the "filtering" process of the person's knowledge, and has something to do with inpiration, as well, because our memory of social intellectual standards are necessary to make evaluations of the experience in order to describe them and use the descriptions for emerging experiences. And I would argue that "experience of a memory is different, because we know it is a memory (and not a present or emerging experience)," is not a single event in experience, but rather a complex experience of thought measured by defining the inferences that make-up a complete thoght.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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09-10-2012, 02:43 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 12:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  reality -> input to senses -> processing -> input to brain -> processing -> input to consciousness -> processing -> filtering -> comprehension
http://www.secularlibrary.com/SLC%201%20NATURE.html

100: Phenomenon - transfer of information in reality
101: Existence
102: Communication
103: Experience
104: Commerce
105: Agreement
106: Change

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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09-10-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 12:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 12:07 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Perception has to be a subcategory of experience, not an equal category.

What would be helpful to the argument is to recognize the semantic hierarchy of reality and experience - does anybody have anything that would satisfy this type of presentation of 'scientific' facts for assuring ourselves that we are all on the 'same page'?

At a minimum, there would be:
reality -> input to senses -> processing -> input to brain -> processing -> input to consciousness -> processing -> filtering -> comprehension

That is a good way to classify an event after it has happened in order for us to examine the event in totality, but the methods of classification in such a way give the wrong impression that they are distinct modes. The same problem is in the way we classify anything. Some things are better understood when looked at as a whole and some are better understood when examined and classified into sections. The process of experience that you just mentioned implies that there is a reality out there that we ever experience as pure reality. Our experience with reality is already shaded by our ideas, beliefs, ideologies, prejudices etc etc. Perception and reality are one, not 2 distinct things.
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09-10-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 03:38 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 12:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  At a minimum, there would be:
reality -> input to senses -> processing -> input to brain -> processing -> input to consciousness -> processing -> filtering -> comprehension

That is a good way to classify an event after it has happened in order for us to examine the event in totality, but the methods of classification in such a way give the wrong impression that they are distinct modes. The same problem is in the way we classify anything. Some things are better understood when looked at as a whole and some are better understood when examined and classified into sections. The process of experience that you just mentioned implies that there is a reality out there that we ever experience as pure reality. Our experience with reality is already shaded by our ideas, beliefs, ideologies, prejudices etc etc. Perception and reality are one, not 2 distinct things.

These aren't modes, it is a sequence of events - a process.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-10-2012, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2012 10:22 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 03:38 PM)I and I Wrote:  Our experience with reality is already shaded by our ideas, beliefs, ideologies, prejudices etc etc.

That's the filtering of knowledge; and that is better organized by my super classification system.

If you would like to prove me wrong, and that I am the stupid mother fucker, like everyone else wants you to believe, then continue your line of thinking about ideas, beliefs, ideologies, prejusices, etc-etc, and sort that stuff out.

Believing that it is impossible to sort out is a circular logic problem - why would it be impossible to sort out?

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Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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10-10-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 03:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 03:38 PM)I and I Wrote:  That is a good way to classify an event after it has happened in order for us to examine the event in totality, but the methods of classification in such a way give the wrong impression that they are distinct modes. The same problem is in the way we classify anything. Some things are better understood when looked at as a whole and some are better understood when examined and classified into sections. The process of experience that you just mentioned implies that there is a reality out there that we ever experience as pure reality. Our experience with reality is already shaded by our ideas, beliefs, ideologies, prejudices etc etc. Perception and reality are one, not 2 distinct things.

These aren't modes, it is a sequence of events - a process.

sequencing events/classifying events in an order (chronologically) to better understand the real world outside our minds is done by the use of the concept of time....but that is in another thread Cool

To say which event comes first is to imply that we FIRST, experience the reality of the world outside SECOND process this with our brain. I am saying that there is a reality beyond our minds but this reality in and of itself can never be experience by a mind because how an individual deals with the real world is already shaded by our mind through ideologies, beliefs, prejudices etc etc.
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11-10-2012, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2012 10:45 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(10-10-2012 07:37 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 03:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  These aren't modes, it is a sequence of events - a process.
sequencing events/classifying events in an order (chronologically) to better understand the real world outside our minds is done by the use of the concept of time....but that is in another thread Cool

To say which event comes first is to imply that we FIRST, experience the reality of the world outside SECOND process this with our brain.
It's a real shame that so few of us can actually do all of that.Hobo

My super secular classification system postulates that there are six ways we can examine any subject:
  1. system(s) analysis
  2. technological utility
  3. persons associated with the topic (scientists, technicians)
  4. organizations associated with the topic
  5. regulations associated with the topic (ideologies, beliefs)
  6. chronologies

(10-10-2012 07:37 PM)I and I Wrote:  I am saying that there is a reality beyond our minds but this reality in and of itself can never be experience by a mind because how an individual deals with the real world is already shaded by our mind through ideologies, beliefs, prejudices etc etc.
You, and most atheists, are the victims of the theists' propaganda machine of rhetoric based on antiquated paradigm of social sciences

Atheists should at least be trying to get rid of the inaccurate ideologies, beliefs, prejudices etc, etc, and make this a better world, or at least a better community for those of us who want to prove that the more accurate ideologies, beliefs, prejudices, etc, etc, lead to the perfect ideologies, beliefs, prejudices, etc, etc that would lead to understanding reality.

Don't you think it's kind of silly to think we can never understand reality???

Isn't that kind of like claiming that the all mighty god can not be understood???

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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11-10-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 03:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 03:38 PM)I and I Wrote:  That is a good way to classify an event after it has happened in order for us to examine the event in totality, but the methods of classification in such a way give the wrong impression that they are distinct modes. The same problem is in the way we classify anything. Some things are better understood when looked at as a whole and some are better understood when examined and classified into sections. The process of experience that you just mentioned implies that there is a reality out there that we ever experience as pure reality. Our experience with reality is already shaded by our ideas, beliefs, ideologies, prejudices etc etc. Perception and reality are one, not 2 distinct things.

These aren't modes, it is a sequence of events - a process.

It would probably help if you understood the processes that formulate the dimentions of reality:
  1. Phenomenon
  2. Communication
  3. Experience
  4. Commerce
  5. Agreement
  6. Change

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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11-10-2012, 11:54 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(11-10-2012 10:43 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 03:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  These aren't modes, it is a sequence of events - a process.

It would probably help if you understood the processes that formulate the dimentions of reality:
  1. Phenomenon
  2. Communication
  3. Experience
  4. Commerce
  5. Agreement
  6. Change

one could argue for any arrangement of those you listed.

Communication is a form of agreement as is experience.

Change could easily be the first on the list. Change and agreement could both be argued to come before experience.

To some philosophers, the very fact that we are using language to formulate an order of experience could cause some to make a different order.
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