The false gap between reality and perception.
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04-10-2012, 10:51 AM
The false gap between reality and perception.
In it's most basic form, mans belief towards understanding or relationship with objects outside our mind has been.

1. The world is a subjective mind experience: This has led to internet forum philosophers and many of the like to claim that it's all subjective and there is no way to know if anything out side our subjective individual selves is real.

2. the world outside our mind is an objective series of events in that there is an objective world and a subjective world. This separation of subjective and objective is known as the perception vs reality argument. According to the group that believes this (which there are many) there is 1. a perception and there is 2. reality.

For language purposes humans have came up with words like objective and subjective, but modern philosophy now points out that it's not one or the other and that human mind doesn't oscillate between the two either. What if there is no separation between reality and perception. What if the process of human minds perceiving real objects is itself reality and that there is no separation of reality and perception?
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04-10-2012, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2012 11:00 AM by Vosur.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 10:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  For language purposes humans have came up with words like objective and subjective, but modern philosophy now points out that it's not one or the other and that human mind doesn't oscillate between the two either. What if there is no separation between reality and perception. What if the process of human minds perceiving real objects is itself reality and that there is no separation of reality and perception?
As an example, the existence of hallucinations and optical illusions support the hypothesis(?) that perception and reality are seperate things.

[Image: optical-illusion-wheels-circles-rotating.png]

Your perception tricks you into thinking that these circles are moving, yet from an objective perspective, they haven't been moving at all.

[Image: IcJnQOT.gif]
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04-10-2012, 11:02 AM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 10:56 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(04-10-2012 10:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  For language purposes humans have came up with words like objective and subjective, but modern philosophy now points out that it's not one or the other and that human mind doesn't oscillate between the two either. What if there is no separation between reality and perception. What if the process of human minds perceiving real objects is itself reality and that there is no separation of reality and perception?
As an example, the existence of hallucinations and optical illusions support the hypothesis(?) that perception and reality are seperate things.

[Image: optical-illusion-wheels-circles-rotating.png]

You're percieving these circles to be moving, yet from an objective perspective, they haven't been moving at all.

I just looked at it and the experience of looking at the wheels and thinking that it was cool was a real experience.
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04-10-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 11:02 AM)I and I Wrote:  I just looked at it and the experience of looking at the wheels and thinking that it was cool was a real experience.
That doesn't adress the problem I mentioned at all. Let's keep it simple. Answer these two questions.

Did you percieve the circles as moving objects?
Have they actually been moving?

[Image: IcJnQOT.gif]
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04-10-2012, 11:11 AM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 11:05 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(04-10-2012 11:02 AM)I and I Wrote:  I just looked at it and the experience of looking at the wheels and thinking that it was cool was a real experience.
That doesn't adress the problem I mentioned at all. Let's keep it simple. Answer these two questions.

Did you percieve the circles as moving objects?
Have they actually been moving?


no I didn't perceive or think that the circles were moving because I know what optical illusions are.
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04-10-2012, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2012 11:31 AM by Vosur.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 11:11 AM)I and I Wrote:  no I didn't perceive or think that the circles were moving because I know what optical illusions are.
You're a liar then. Knowing what an optical illusion is doesn't change anything at it's effect. Just like knowing what hallucinations are doesn't stop them from appearing when, for example, using certain drugs.

http://www.dailycognition.com/index.php/...?cpage=100

[Image: optical_illusions_bulge-thumb-520x522-57.png]

[Image: 800px-cafe-wall.svg.png]

[Image: optical-illusion2.jpg]

[Image: IcJnQOT.gif]
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04-10-2012, 11:33 AM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 11:19 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(04-10-2012 11:11 AM)I and I Wrote:  no I didn't perceive or think that the circles were moving because I know what optical illusions are.
You're a liar then. Knowing what an optical illusion is doesn't change anything at it's effect. Just like knowing what a hallucination is doesn't stop them from appearing when, for example, using certain drugs.

[Image: optical_illusions_bulge-thumb-520x522-57.png]

[Image: 800px-cafe-wall.svg.png]

[Image: optical-illusion2.jpg]


I know that I am perceiving something that isn't happening, that is the reality of my experience when I looked at that picture and yes my knowledge of the difference between what is or isn't an illusion changes the reality of our experience. If someone knows that they are remembering a bear attack, the reality of this memory and reflection on past events doesn't have the same affect of the actual event.
Are you trying to say the circles were spinning?
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04-10-2012, 11:38 AM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 11:33 AM)I and I Wrote:  I know that I am perceiving something that isn't happening, that is the reality of my experience when I looked at that picture and yes my knowledge of the difference between what is or isn't an illusion changes the reality of our experience. If someone knows that they are remembering a bear attack, the reality of this memory and reflection on past events doesn't have the same affect of the actual event.
Are you trying to say the circles were spinning?
Knowing that your perception does not conform with reality doesn't change anything at the perception itself. Again, you're missing the point of your own thread. What you perceive with your own eyes and what is actually there is very different in these examples.

If perception and reality are one and the same thing, how do you explain the differences between the two of them that I just pointed out?

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04-10-2012, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2012 11:53 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 10:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  In it's most basic form, mans belief towards understanding or relationship with objects outside our mind has been.

1. The world is a subjective mind experience: This has led to internet forum philosophers and many of the like to claim that it's all subjective and there is no way to know if anything out side our subjective individual selves is real.

2. the world outside our mind is an objective series of events in that there is an objective world and a subjective world. This separation of subjective and objective is known as the perception vs reality argument. According to the group that believes this (which there are many) there is 1. a perception and there is 2. reality.

For language purposes humans have came up with words like objective and subjective, but modern philosophy now points out that it's not one or the other and that human mind doesn't oscillate between the two either. What if there is no separation between reality and perception. What if the process of human minds perceiving real objects is itself reality and that there is no separation of reality and perception?

One who has such a poor grasp of grammar, and meaning, should not be humiliating themself in pubic with statements about human language.Drinking Beverage

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
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04-10-2012, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2012 11:58 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 10:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  What if there is no separation between reality and perception? What if the process of human minds perceiving real objects is itself reality and that there is no separation of reality and perception?

There is no seperation. Perception is always present in our experience of reality.

The terms of "objective," and "subjective," are relative to an agreement as to what is the experience. If two people agree it is considered "objective," if they diagree, the experience can only be subjective.

(04-10-2012 11:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Knowing that your perception does not conform with reality doesn't change anything at the perception itself. Again, you're missing the point of your own thread. What you perceive with your own eyes and what is actually there is very different in these examples.

If perception and reality are one and the same thing, how do you explain the differences between the two of them that I just pointed out?

How does one know that their perception does not conform with reality if there is no other being to confirm their belief?

Once you understand what the dimensions of reality are, it becomes easier to understand the problems we perpetuate in our semantic system.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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