The false gap between reality and perception.
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06-10-2012, 01:16 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(06-10-2012 01:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  It may correspond to a tiny sliver of an objective reality (if one exists at all), Vosur, but it certainly doesn't conform to reality. 1,000 bits per second from the tongue, 100,000 bits per second from the nose and ears, 1,000,000 bits per second from the skin, 10,000,000 bits per second from the eyes. And the conscious mind can process on the order of 50 bits per second. If anything I force a false reality to conform to me by filtering the relevant from the irrelevant. I am a product of my reticular formation and the properties of my transducers inherently warp reality. They can't help it. Big Grin
Oh no, not another semantic argument. Dodgy I think you know what I meant.

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06-10-2012, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2012 02:29 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(06-10-2012 01:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-10-2012 01:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  It may correspond to a tiny sliver of an objective reality (if one exists at all), Vosur, but it certainly doesn't conform to reality. 1,000 bits per second from the tongue, 100,000 bits per second from the nose and ears, 1,000,000 bits per second from the skin, 10,000,000 bits per second from the eyes. And the conscious mind can process on the order of 50 bits per second. If anything I force a false reality to conform to me by filtering the relevant from the irrelevant. I am a product of my reticular formation and the properties of my transducers inherently warp reality. They can't help it. Big Grin
Oh no, not another semantic argument. Dodgy I think you know what I meant.

Not really, my German friend. I was trying to make the point that an objective reality, if one exists at all, cannot possibly be like anything I am capable of imagining. The filter at the end of my brain stem funnel is too restrictive and my transducers are only tuned to specific frequency ranges and wavelengths. I leave objective reality to the physicists. I'm just a lowly computer scientist, I make my own virtual realities.

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06-10-2012, 07:16 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(06-10-2012 01:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-10-2012 01:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Oh no, not another semantic argument. Dodgy I think you know what I meant.

Not really, my German friend. I was trying to make the point that an objective reality, if one exists at all, cannot possibly be like anything I am capable of imagining. The filter at the end of my brain stem funnel is too restrictive and my transducers are only tuned to specific frequency ranges and wavelengths. I leave objective reality to the physicists. I'm just a lowly computer scientist, I make my own virtual realities.

Rather you use math, electricity, and computing to create the illusion of a separate reality, when it is really just part and within this reality.




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06-10-2012, 07:23 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(06-10-2012 07:16 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(06-10-2012 01:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Not really, my German friend. I was trying to make the point that an objective reality, if one exists at all, cannot possibly be like anything I am capable of imagining. The filter at the end of my brain stem funnel is too restrictive and my transducers are only tuned to specific frequency ranges and wavelengths. I leave objective reality to the physicists. I'm just a lowly computer scientist, I make my own virtual realities.

Rather you use math, electricity, and computing to create the illusion of a separate reality, when it is really just part and within this reality.




I like the way I say it better. Tongue

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07-10-2012, 01:29 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2012 01:49 AM by depat.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
There is something called "Perceptial Blindness" that seems to take place when an object is so far out of a person's or people's experience, schema, category of the world that it cannot be seen.

Such as, American Indian's first experience/non experience with large ships at sea. They simply did not see them, well within sight. The tribal Shaman saw them, more likely because he had knowledge of and experience with perceptial deceptions.

Their eyes did not fail them, their brains did. Their brains dictated a reality that did not exist. The loner shaman, a kind of Plato, and schooled in the particulars of his art saw these ships.

I wonder if he would have seen the truth in Vosur's optical illusion?
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08-10-2012, 04:29 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(06-10-2012 12:14 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-10-2012 11:55 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  I meant that you are claiming that the viewer must believe that the optical illusions are not illusions - isn't that what you are claiming?
(06-10-2012 11:55 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Yeah, as I said before, the person needs to seek peer review of his experiences.
No, that's not what I've been saying at all. I claimed that whether or not a person who is looking at an optical illusion is aware of the fact that it's an illusion is irrelevant to my argument, because knowledge of that fact does not alter their perception.

(06-10-2012 11:55 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Are you sure?

I'm very confident there is something wrong with that reasoning - please direct me to any scholarly references to support that argument.
I'll answer that question with two counter questions.

1. Do hallucinations disappear when you become aware of the fact that you're experiencing them?
2. Do optical illusions no longer work when you become aware of the fact that they are merely illusions?

In the first post of this thread, I and I suggested that subjective perception and objective reality are inseparable. Throughout this thread, using the examples of optical illusions and hallucinations, I have shown that they can be seperated with ease.

"An optical illusion (also called a visual illusion) is characterized by visually perceived images that differ from objective reality. The information gathered by the eye is processed in the brain to give a perception that does not tally with a physical measurement of the stimulus source."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion

[Image: Grid_illusion.svg]


The knowledge of x being an optical illusion is part of the experience. The experience of a memory is different because we know it's a memory, the knowledge of it being a memory is part of the experience.
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08-10-2012, 04:35 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
And to clarify, I am not saying perception is reality. I am saying that what we define as two separate (reality and perception) are really part of the same experience as a whole.

If a woman was just raped by a guy in an NBA jersey, this jersey could bring up memories of that event, meaning her perception and reality are part of the experience of seeing the jersey again.

When americans look at muslims our reality of seeing real people is also influenced by our perception of them (what we are taught in our culture). This experience of seeing muslims involves perception and reality.
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09-10-2012, 12:57 AM
AW: RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(08-10-2012 04:35 PM)I and I Wrote:  And to clarify, I am not saying perception is reality. I am saying that what we define as two separate (reality and perception) are really part of the same experience as a whole.

If a woman was just raped by a guy in an NBA jersey, this jersey could bring up memories of that event, meaning her perception and reality are part of the experience of seeing the jersey again.

When americans look at muslims our reality of seeing real people is also influenced by our perception of them (what we are taught in our culture). This experience of seeing muslims involves perception and reality.
Now you're moving the goalpost. This thread is about perception, not experience. Look at the OP.

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09-10-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 12:57 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-10-2012 04:35 PM)I and I Wrote:  And to clarify, I am not saying perception is reality. I am saying that what we define as two separate (reality and perception) are really part of the same experience as a whole.

If a woman was just raped by a guy in an NBA jersey, this jersey could bring up memories of that event, meaning her perception and reality are part of the experience of seeing the jersey again.

When americans look at muslims our reality of seeing real people is also influenced by our perception of them (what we are taught in our culture). This experience of seeing muslims involves perception and reality.
Now you're moving the goalpost. This thread is about perception, not experience. Look at the OP.

My last post involved both reality and perception in how they are not separate, proving this i used experience as an example.....next
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09-10-2012, 12:07 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 11:14 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 12:57 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Now you're moving the goalpost. This thread is about perception, not experience. Look at the OP.

My last post involved both reality and perception in how they are not separate, proving this i used experience as an example.....next
Perception has to be a subcategory of experience, not an equal category.

What would be helpful to the argument is to recognize the semantic hierarchy of reality and experience - does anybody have anything that would satisfy this type of presentation of 'scientific' facts for assuring ourselves that we are all on the 'same page'?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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