The false gap between reality and perception.
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13-10-2012, 12:00 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2012 12:04 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(11-10-2012 11:54 PM)I and I Wrote:  one could argue for any arrangement of those you listed.

Communication is a form of agreement as is experience.

Change could easily be the first on the list. Change and agreement could both be argued to come before experience.

To some philosophers, the very fact that we are using language to formulate an order of experience could cause some to make a different order.
Semantics is going to be covered in the Agreement - ideology category. We have to agree to the semantics of our language, and the SLC seeks to standardize exactly that.

Phenomenon - natural, all encompassing
Communication - technological, man-made
Experience - personal
Commerce - social
Agreement - social ideological
Change - all encompassing uniquely relevent to time.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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13-10-2012, 02:04 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(13-10-2012 12:00 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(11-10-2012 11:54 PM)I and I Wrote:  one could argue for any arrangement of those you listed.

Communication is a form of agreement as is experience.

Change could easily be the first on the list. Change and agreement could both be argued to come before experience.

To some philosophers, the very fact that we are using language to formulate an order of experience could cause some to make a different order.
Semantics is going to be covered in the Agreement - ideology category. We have to agree to the semantics of our language, and the SLC seeks to standardize exactly that.

Phenomenon - natural, all encompassing
Communication - technological, man-made
Experience - personal
Commerce - social
Agreement - social ideological
Change - all encompassing uniquely relevent to time.


Man does not experience "natural, all encompassing" in it's raw form, any input from the world around us is already going to be shaded by our PAST ideological constructs. This act of acting on the world around us according to our beliefs is what change is.

Any one of those listed could be argued to come first.

My point is that in order to understand this process it is better and easier to understand it if we put them into linear categories (language) but really there is correct order, any one can argue that x happens before x. Basically all you have said is that in order to understand a process we understand it better by separating them into categories in a linear way.
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15-10-2012, 11:25 AM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(13-10-2012 02:04 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 12:00 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Phenomenon - natural, all encompassing
Communication - technological, man-made
Experience - personal
Commerce - social
Agreement - social ideological
Change - all encompassing uniquely relevent to time.

Any one of those listed could be argued to come first.

yes - thank you. What needs to be developed, that I cannot do on my own, is the subdivisioning of these categories, because the theory, may be, that they all have the same subjects, but in a different order. Wouldn't that be scientific beauty?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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17-10-2012, 12:57 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(13-10-2012 02:04 PM)I and I Wrote:  Man does not experience "natural, all encompassing" in it's raw form, any input from the world around us is already going to be shaded by our PAST ideological constructs. This act of acting on the world around us according to our beliefs is what change is.

I would argue that under the strict guidlines of scientific analysis we do a good job of defining reality; it's just that the margin of human error effects our abilty to correctly guide our abstract social constructs (politics, religion), as well as our guiding of the physical properties of our environment (transportation, communication, and other tools).

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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18-10-2012, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2012 04:29 PM by Vosur.)
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(09-10-2012 11:14 AM)I and I Wrote:  My last post involved both reality and perception in how they are not separate, proving this i used experience as an example.....next
As I have said previously, experience has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This thread is about whether or not subjective perception of reality and the objective physical reality are one and the same. Using optical illusions and hallucinations, I have provided you with an argument proving that they are seperate.

".....next" [sic]

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18-10-2012, 09:11 PM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(18-10-2012 04:23 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(09-10-2012 11:14 AM)I and I Wrote:  My last post involved both reality and perception in how they are not separate, proving this i used experience as an example.....next
As I have said previously, experience has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This thread is about whether or not subjective perception of reality and the objective physical reality are one and the same. Using optical illusions and hallucinations, I have provided you with an argument proving that they are seperate.

".....next" [sic]

Part of "reality" is perception.
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19-10-2012, 10:16 AM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(18-10-2012 09:11 PM)I and I Wrote:  Part of "reality" is perception.

HEAR, HEAR!!!

(18-10-2012 04:23 PM)Vosur Wrote:  As I have said previously, experience has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This thread is about whether or not subjective perception of reality and the objective physical reality are one and the same. Using optical illusions and hallucinations, I have provided you with an argument proving that they are seperate.

".....next" [sic]
LaughatLaughatLaughat
We are not convinced.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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19-10-2012, 10:23 AM
RE: AW: The false gap between reality and perception.
(19-10-2012 10:16 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  We are not convinced.
I'm afraid that there's not much I can do about that. Sleepy

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19-10-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
(04-10-2012 10:51 AM)I and I Wrote:  In it's most basic form, mans belief towards understanding or relationship with objects outside our mind has been.

1. The world is a subjective mind experience: This has led to internet forum philosophers and many of the like to claim that it's all subjective and there is no way to know if anything out side our subjective individual selves is real.

2. the world outside our mind is an objective series of events in that there is an objective world and a subjective world. This separation of subjective and objective is known as the perception vs reality argument. According to the group that believes this (which there are many) there is 1. a perception and there is 2. reality.

For language purposes humans have came up with words like objective and subjective, but modern philosophy now points out that it's not one or the other and that human mind doesn't oscillate between the two either. What if there is no separation between reality and perception. What if the process of human minds perceiving real objects is itself reality and that there is no separation of reality and perception?

I ask myself what is more plausible: that our perceptions are the brain's best efforts to map a reality that really exists outside of us, or that reality is the brain's perceptions and we are being duped into believing there is a reality outside us that includes other people? I have to assume the former is true even if it is difficult to find evidence, since the latter just seems too bizarre and too difficult to account for. When someone claims that reality is just being created by the mind, they are actually making an unfalsifiable claim because any experience that might be offered as evidence for there being the mind's perception and an external reality can be explained away as being just another one of the mind's tricks. So, I cannot take that line of thinking seriously.
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31-03-2013, 09:56 PM
RE: The false gap between reality and perception.
you are wrong, both are perceptions to you, them moving and them not moving, u can only perceive reality, whatever information u get about anything are perceptions of your brain, even touching someone is not really feeling them, your mind is just perceiving by the impulses sent to your brain that this is how the person feels, everything you perceive itself is not reality itself, only perception, people confuse reality with how they perceive it, but that's the problem, you experience reality with your brain, but your brain can only perceive it through signals and chemicals, those signals of reality r perceptions, and thus, we perceive reality, we can not truly be in it, only through perception can we experience it, but perception is just that, it is not the source, thus people think how they perceive reality is reality, they create false concepts of time, only your mind exists in time, reality is timeless, time is a measurement of distance that's all, reality never began and will never end, u cant measure that with no beginning or end, u can only measure your being, because you begin and end, not reality, you think the whole of existence is based on you, but your world is not reality, reality needs no time, humans need this concept of time, human illusion, an illusion of meaning, reality is meaningless, you are meaningless, existence doesn't need meaning, only humans create meaning, meaning is only yours, don't confuse it with reality, dont for a minute think your perception of reality is reality, there is no past, it is only memory, there is no future, it is only imagination, only now exists and the moment you exist is not a moment, because moments exist in time, the moment you are is not a second, it is timeless, but mind cant exist this way, it always has to move, only your mind moves, not you....you say this person sitting next to me is here, if he moves to the end of the room, you say this person is here in this room, if he exits the room you can say hes there or you can still say hes here outside the room, even when hes next to you you can perceive him here or there, but here or there are mere perceptions, he is neither here nor there nor anywhere, the way you establish that hes somewhere is in relationship to something else, like this man is here on this planet or there on the moon, but that relationship to something else is only in your mind, you see how its all relative, i think thats what the theory of relativity is, im not too book smart but i came to these concepts on my own and picked up that in science there is talk of similar concepts, so yes reality is relative to you, because u can never be in true timeless, stillness of reality, u can only perceive it and that is the joke on humanity, this illusion of the mind of reality! i dont even know where im going with this, the further and deeper you think of reality the more it doesnt make sense, because you cant explain reality with perceptions, theres not enough words, for reality itself needs no explanation or meaning, u can only feel that you feel it, thats all for now....
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