The fictional Pope Peter
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25-05-2015, 01:40 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(24-05-2015 09:16 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  There are some interesting concepts in here.....as well as more throwing shit on the wall to see if it sticks.

http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/mediev...tmlhttp://

Quote:The doctrinal tradition of Peter’s importance to Rome can be traced back to the third century at the earliest. It should be noted that the ‘historical’ evidence for this tradition is tenuous at best and more akin to legend that fact. There is little to no information on the life of Peter in the New Testament and none from non-Christian writers. What is known is that Peter was one of the oldest of Christ’s disciples and that he and James, brother of Jesus, led the ‘council of twelve’ of the community in Jerusalem.

I would dispute the section in green as simply more of the legend that was dismissed a sentence earlier.

True.

What is more, if one grants the book of Acts and other sources any credibility, James was in charge of Peter, not his equal
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25-05-2015, 07:52 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
Acts has all the credibility of a book about Robin Hood's Merry Men after he died.

As Richard Carrier notes in "On The Historicity of Jesus."

Quote:But even in general, Acts shares too many features with popular adventure novels of the same period to warrant trusting it as a genuine history: (1) they all promote a particular god or religion; (2) they are all travel narratives; (3) they all involve miraculous or amazing events; (4) they all include encounters with fabulous or exotic peoples (e.g. 'bull-sacrificing pagans of Lycaonia in Acts 14.8- 19, superstitious natives of Malta in 28.1-6, and philosophical Athenian dilettantes in chapter 17', as well as fanatical pagan silversmiths of Ephesus in 1 9.23-41, and so on); (5) they often incorporate a theme of chaste couples separated and then reunited (a token nod to this element exists in PauPs chaste interaction with Lydia in Acts 16.1 3-40 and his many women fol lowers, named and unnamed); (6) they feature exciting narratives of captivities and escapes (as
in Acts 12, 16, 2 1 and 26); and (7) they often include themes of persecu-tion, (8) scenes involving excited crowds (who become a character in the story, as in Ephesus and Jerusalem, in Acts 1 8-19 and Acts 6-7 and 21-22),
(9) and divine rescues from danger; and (10) divine revelations are always
integral to the plot (through oracles, dreams and visions, all of which feature
in Acts)Y In fact, Acts looks far more like a novel than any historical
monograph of the period.24 If Acts looks exactly like an ancient novel (and
it does), are we really going to chalk this up to coincidence?

Pgs 367-68

So, no. I'm not prepared to give the bastards an inch.

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25-05-2015, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2015 09:41 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(25-05-2015 07:52 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Acts has all the credibility of a book about Robin Hood's Merry Men after he died.

As Richard Carrier notes in "On The Historicity of Jesus."

Quote:But even in general, Acts shares too many features with popular adventure novels of the same period to warrant trusting it as a genuine history: (1) they all promote a particular god or religion; (2) they are all travel narratives; (3) they all involve miraculous or amazing events; (4) they all include encounters with fabulous or exotic peoples (e.g. 'bull-sacrificing pagans of Lycaonia in Acts 14.8- 19, superstitious natives of Malta in 28.1-6, and philosophical Athenian dilettantes in chapter 17', as well as fanatical pagan silversmiths of Ephesus in 1 9.23-41, and so on); (5) they often incorporate a theme of chaste couples separated and then reunited (a token nod to this element exists in PauPs chaste interaction with Lydia in Acts 16.1 3-40 and his many women fol lowers, named and unnamed); (6) they feature exciting narratives of captivities and escapes (as
in Acts 12, 16, 2 1 and 26); and (7) they often include themes of persecu-tion, (8) scenes involving excited crowds (who become a character in the story, as in Ephesus and Jerusalem, in Acts 1 8-19 and Acts 6-7 and 21-22),
(9) and divine rescues from danger; and (10) divine revelations are always
integral to the plot (through oracles, dreams and visions, all of which feature
in Acts)Y In fact, Acts looks far more like a novel than any historical
monograph of the period.24 If Acts looks exactly like an ancient novel (and
it does), are we really going to chalk this up to coincidence?

Pgs 367-68

So, no. I'm not prepared to give the bastards an inch.

"Acts has all the credibility of a book about Robin Hood's Merry Men after he died."

Agreed. In fact I'm going to write a post on this....um....wait a minute....

In fact, if one reads Acts with some appreciation of the probable real history it's fairly obvious the author was lying through his teeth. So when the author writes

- "the whole community was united heart and soul"

One can guess that they fought bitterly between themselves.

- "there were 3000 converts in one day"

There were no converts.

-“That day a bitter persecution started against the church in Jerusalem, and everyone except the apostles fled to the country districts of Judaea and Samaria”

Tha apostles weren't even in the church.
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25-05-2015, 10:58 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
I doubt that there were any "apostles."

Every important man needed an entourage.

Have you ever noticed how jesus' "disciples" are the most clueless bunch of fucks going?

No matter how many magic tricks they saw their boy pull off their main function seems to have been to be amazed that he could do it again.

Sheer bullshit, mon ami.

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26-05-2015, 02:39 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(25-05-2015 10:58 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  I doubt that there were any "apostles."

Every important man needed an entourage.

Have you ever noticed how jesus' "disciples" are the most clueless bunch of fucks going?

No matter how many magic tricks they saw their boy pull off their main function seems to have been to be amazed that he could do it again.

Sheer bullshit, mon ami.

Yeah, I get that.

You may be right.
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26-05-2015, 04:01 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(26-05-2015 02:39 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(25-05-2015 10:58 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  I doubt that there were any "apostles."

Every important man needed an entourage.

Have you ever noticed how jesus' "disciples" are the most clueless bunch of fucks going?

No matter how many magic tricks they saw their boy pull off their main function seems to have been to be amazed that he could do it again.

Sheer bullshit, mon ami.

Yeah, I get that.

You may be right.

Ps...I think ur half right
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26-05-2015, 06:01 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
I have just started this book which has info on the Byzantium Empire, 4 Patriarchs, schisms up until the fall to the Ottoman Empire. Although as I've only just started it I cannot yet attest to it's worthwhileness:

Byzantium: The Surprising Life of a Medieval Empire.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

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26-05-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
The whole issue of Papal Primacy is one that could use a lot of scrutiny seeing as how it was heavily pushed by Leo I in the 5th century. All of this effort to backdate the importance of Rome in the early xtian era seems to be a later facade designed with politics, not religion, in mind.

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26-05-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(26-05-2015 10:31 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  The whole issue of Papal Primacy is one that could use a lot of scrutiny seeing as how it was heavily pushed by Leo I in the 5th century. All of this effort to backdate the importance of Rome in the early xtian era seems to be a later facade designed with politics, not religion, in mind.

Most likely it all stems from the Constantine when he commissioned 50 bibles to be produced despite the cannon not being finalized. I believe he asked for the council of Nicea to be called. I don't think he played an active role in any of this, but I think he was the driving force behind Christianity becoming more formal and centralizing it. I don't know this for a fact, but it's my guess. If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge. While Constantine preferred Constantinople as his city, Rome would have had to become the central location since it was the center of the empire when Jesus was alive and over the first couple of centuries afterwards.
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26-05-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(26-05-2015 11:07 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 10:31 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  The whole issue of Papal Primacy is one that could use a lot of scrutiny seeing as how it was heavily pushed by Leo I in the 5th century. All of this effort to backdate the importance of Rome in the early xtian era seems to be a later facade designed with politics, not religion, in mind.

Most likely it all stems from the Constantine when he commissioned 50 bibles to be produced despite the cannon not being finalized. I believe he asked for the council of Nicea to be called. I don't think he played an active role in any of this, but I think he was the driving force behind Christianity becoming more formal and centralizing it. I don't know this for a fact, but it's my guess. If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge. While Constantine preferred Constantinople as his city, Rome would have had to become the central location since it was the center of the empire when Jesus was alive and over the first couple of centuries afterwards.

"If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge."

Agreed...sort of. I would take the argument one step further. I would say that Christianity wouldn't have even been created it hadn't been for the Roman government. I think they did, in fact, invent it.
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