The fictional Pope Peter
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26-05-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
Quote:Most likely it all stems from the Constantine when he commissioned 50 bibles to be produced despite the cannon not being finalized.

That sounds logical....but:

Quote:In 286 Diocletian moved the capital of the Western Roman Empire from Rome to Mediolanum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediolanum

The capital never returned to Rome. In 402, the capital was moved to Ravenna. In 476, Odoacer put the Western Empire out of its misery. Meanwhile, Constantine had founded Constantinople in the Hellespont.

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26-05-2015, 07:41 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(26-05-2015 03:51 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Most likely it all stems from the Constantine when he commissioned 50 bibles to be produced despite the cannon not being finalized.

That sounds logical....but:

Quote:In 286 Diocletian moved the capital of the Western Roman Empire from Rome to Mediolanum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediolanum

The capital never returned to Rome. In 402, the capital was moved to Ravenna. In 476, Odoacer put the Western Empire out of its misery. Meanwhile, Constantine had founded Constantinople in the Hellespont.

Thanks. It's a little embarrassing, but I must have been absent on the day we reviewed the latter half of the Roman Empire Blush

But, it's always great to learn new things. That's what makes this forum so cool - a lot of smart people participate here!
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26-05-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(26-05-2015 03:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 11:07 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Most likely it all stems from the Constantine when he commissioned 50 bibles to be produced despite the cannon not being finalized. I believe he asked for the council of Nicea to be called. I don't think he played an active role in any of this, but I think he was the driving force behind Christianity becoming more formal and centralizing it. I don't know this for a fact, but it's my guess. If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge. While Constantine preferred Constantinople as his city, Rome would have had to become the central location since it was the center of the empire when Jesus was alive and over the first couple of centuries afterwards.

"If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge."

Agreed...sort of. I would take the argument one step further. I would say that Christianity wouldn't have even been created it hadn't been for the Roman government. I think they did, in fact, invent it.

I know you've researched this a lot more than I have, and that I've been recently on this journey to try to figure out what really happened to the best of our collective knowledge using the tools we developed for forensic history and archaeology. I was hypothesizing that Christianity was actually started by Paul - or perhaps people who were followers of Paul who merged Judaism and Greek Gnosticism - and that it was taken by Rome while still vulnerable and either tweaked by them or pushed by them since the Greek influences meshed well with Roman views on religion.
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26-05-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(26-05-2015 03:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 11:07 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Most likely it all stems from the Constantine when he commissioned 50 bibles to be produced despite the cannon not being finalized. I believe he asked for the council of Nicea to be called. I don't think he played an active role in any of this, but I think he was the driving force behind Christianity becoming more formal and centralizing it. I don't know this for a fact, but it's my guess. If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge. While Constantine preferred Constantinople as his city, Rome would have had to become the central location since it was the center of the empire when Jesus was alive and over the first couple of centuries afterwards.

"If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge."

Agreed...sort of. I would take the argument one step further. I would say that Christianity wouldn't have even been created it hadn't been for the Roman government. I think they did, in fact, invent it.

Yabut Mark, how do you explain all of those eyewitnesses that the bible says saw the miracles and everything? And do you really think that people would die for a lie? ........................Josephus!!!! Yeah, Josephus proves it!!! Did you also hear they found Jesus' home? The bible just keeps getting proven more and more each day. I really think you just want to sin and be angry. Big Grin

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26-05-2015, 09:34 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
I suggest you read Bart Ehrman's Forged. There is so much bullshit in xtian writings that it is hard to know if any of it reflects reality. I propose dismissing anything which comes from xtian sources as those are tainted beyond repair.

But just for the moment, let's stick with this "paul" character. Modern scholars generally agree that 7 of his so-called epistles are authentic. But what does that mean? It is like when people insist there was a "Historical" jesus and then can't agree on what they mean by "historical." Does authentic mean that stylistically those 7 were written by the same person? Okay. I can buy that. But that does not mean any of the rest of the happy horseshit is true.

Now. I've never gotten any xtian to address this issue. They get very quiet.
There is little in the way of historical markers in "paul." One that there is occurs in 2 Cor. 11 32:

In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me,

Xtians will tie their scrotums into knots trying to make this be Aretas IV who died c 40 AD. When last heard from in history he was being chased back to Nabatea
by the army of Lucius Vitellius, Roman Governor of Syria c 37. Aretas IV had attacked Herod Antipas and attacking a Roman ally was almost never a good idea.
Xtians invent some sort of "settlement of the East" by Caligula in which Aretas IV was given the city of Damascus which seems to be unknown to any Greco-Roman or Jewish historian of the time.

This would seem to be a serious problem for the 2 Cor 11 reference except, it actually did happen. King Aretas III of Nabatea did control Damascus. The problem for xtians is that he controlled it from 84 to 64 BC when he lost it to Pompey the Great's legions when they came rolling through the East.

So we have an actual historical event which mirrors the historical marker in 2 Cor. 11.... if we discount the fact that it is 100 years to early at a minimum to do the jesus freaks any good.

One more interesting tidbit. There was no Corinth between 84 and 64 BC. In 148 the Roman consul, Lucius Memmius had leveled the town as punishment for the last in a series of Greek revolts. The Greeks finally got the message after that. Corinth was re-founded as a Roman colony by Gaius Julius Caesar, in 44 BC shortly before he was murdered.

So, I guess the question that comes up in regard to "authentic" is there one author of these documents or were they all redacted by the same editor? Does that still make them "authentic?" I'm curious.

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27-05-2015, 07:32 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
^^^^^^^^
I have wanted to pick that one up. It is kind of awkward though with my wife. At the same time, she buys these silly bible studies with our money. She just makes me feel guilty for spending it...... dammit.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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27-05-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
Forged? I have an electronic version that someone sent to me. If you'd like it, PM an email address.

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27-05-2015, 03:09 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(26-05-2015 07:47 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "If it wasn't for the Roman Empire "ruling the world" at that time, I have no doubt that Christianity would have coalesced around Jerusalem or even have died out eventually if a semitic or eastern power was in charge."

Agreed...sort of. I would take the argument one step further. I would say that Christianity wouldn't have even been created it hadn't been for the Roman government. I think they did, in fact, invent it.

I know you've researched this a lot more than I have, and that I've been recently on this journey to try to figure out what really happened to the best of our collective knowledge using the tools we developed for forensic history and archaeology. I was hypothesizing that Christianity was actually started by Paul - or perhaps people who were followers of Paul who merged Judaism and Greek Gnosticism - and that it was taken by Rome while still vulnerable and either tweaked by them or pushed by them since the Greek influences meshed well with Roman views on religion.

"I was hypothesizing that Christianity was actually started by Paul - or perhaps people who were followers of Paul who merged Judaism and Greek Gnosticism - and that it was taken by Rome while still vulnerable and either tweaked by them or pushed by them since the Greek influences meshed well with Roman views on religion."

Agreed. My best guess is that Paul was a Roman government agent.
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27-05-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
A Roman government "agent?" Really? How very modern a concept.

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28-05-2015, 02:10 AM
RE: The fictional Pope Peter
(27-05-2015 04:50 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  A Roman government "agent?" Really? How very modern a concept.

I could have said "spy" or "propagandist" or "employee."

Whatever you call it, I suspect he was working for the government.

The Roman government at the time was very proficient at controlling popular opinion; so it is not a modern concept.
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