The final discussion... for now.
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02-07-2016, 08:55 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(02-07-2016 08:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Hold on... I'm a committed theist and I'm majoring in a science. There is a way to strike a balance, but I think it has to be approached from the right standpoint and with the right attitude. I also, sadly, think it's a lot harder with a fundamentalist, but I still think that at the very least mutual respect can be attained.

Maybe you didn't completely catch what I have posted in this thread. My end of the discussions were polite and even-toned, and no condescension.

This part I haven't been clear about: I would not describe them as fundamentalists. I would describe them as moderate, non-practicing Christians. That's part of why I was willing, as there seemed a chance they might listen and think for themselves, investigate what I was saying.

Speaking of that, how do YOU reconcile science versus a magic book? While I'm older, I have recently attended a university for another year. The vast majority of younglings I met had no delusions of fairies and such. Is it the same where you study? Are you the odd man/woman out?

In the end I'm not sure there will ever be the same relationship as before. There are underpinnings of resentment from at least one. The other side of the conversation are older, and having your potential after-life chipped away at must be scary....
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02-07-2016, 09:12 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(02-07-2016 08:55 PM)Armageddon it Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 08:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Hold on... I'm a committed theist and I'm majoring in a science. There is a way to strike a balance, but I think it has to be approached from the right standpoint and with the right attitude. I also, sadly, think it's a lot harder with a fundamentalist, but I still think that at the very least mutual respect can be attained.

Maybe you didn't completely catch what I have posted in this thread. My end of the discussions were polite and even-toned, and no condescension.

This part I haven't been clear about: I would not describe them as fundamentalists. I would describe them as moderate, non-practicing Christians. That's part of why I was willing, as there seemed a chance they might listen and think for themselves, investigate what I was saying.

Speaking of that, how do YOU reconcile science versus a magic book? While I'm older, I have recently attended a university for another year. The vast majority of younglings I met had no delusions of fairies and such. Is it the same where you study? Are you the odd man/woman out?

In the end I'm not sure there will ever be the same relationship as before. There are underpinnings of resentment from at least one. The other side of the conversation are older, and having your potential after-life chipped away at must be scary....

Actually, my comment was directed to Syz. I just maintain that a balance can be struck.

I was coaxed into science through my religious leaders. Most of whom, in my case, were math and science degree holders themselves. I never really considered going into this field, though, until I actually took some math and science courses and I just found that I loved the challenge.

At university, I primarily meet atheists and secular people who may connect with their religion on a cultural level, but not on a spiritual level. I have also met a few bona fide Christian theists in my stem courses, as well. I'm not the odd woman out, no but I'm certainly not in the majority.
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02-07-2016, 09:17 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
Growing up, I was not close to my family.

Abandoning them and having no more contact with them was easy for me.
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02-07-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
id let it go. i dont even try to discuss it with my wife anymore. ive realized its not essential to having a good relationship. especially since she doesnt actively participate in religious activities. she just believes in the standard hippy jesus that is so prevalent around this area. thats how she was raised and shes not interested in critical thinking, so whatever.
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02-07-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(02-07-2016 08:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Hold on... I'm a committed theist and I'm majoring in a science. There is a way to strike a balance, but I think it has to be approached from the right standpoint and with the right attitude. I also, sadly, think it's a lot harder with a fundamentalist, but I still think that at the very least mutual respect can be attained.

With all due respect Aliza, I think a theistic scientist of necessity has to make some compromises one way or the other. And the most obvious one is a belief in the existence of a supernatural entity. Or do you choose to forego that belief?

And do you deny the geological age of the earth and the theory of evolution? Because, logically, you can't have it both ways.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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02-07-2016, 10:46 PM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2016 10:01 AM by jennybee.)
RE: The final discussion... for now.
I can't speak for Aliza's beliefs, but when I was a theist, I meshed science and evolution with my belief system. I believed God put the wheels in motion for evolution. I believed the Bible was symbolic and not literal. I believed in God and Jesus. I also have a Master's degree in a science related field. It's not that difficult to balance science and religion *if* you are a rational theist and want to hold onto your beliefs due to family, culture, identity, desire for spirituality.
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02-07-2016, 10:50 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(02-07-2016 10:32 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 08:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Hold on... I'm a committed theist and I'm majoring in a science. There is a way to strike a balance, but I think it has to be approached from the right standpoint and with the right attitude. I also, sadly, think it's a lot harder with a fundamentalist, but I still think that at the very least mutual respect can be attained.

With all due respect Aliza, I think a theistic scientist of necessity has to make some compromises one way or the other. And the most obvious one is a belief in the existence of a supernatural entity. Or do you choose to forego that belief?

And do you deny the geological age of the earth and the theory of evolution? Because, logically, you can't have it both ways.

No, I don't forgo my belief in a G-d, but I don't see what compromise that means I'm supposed to have to make. Keep your theism at home when you're sciencing. Religious views cannot be validated; they don't belong in the classroom.

Yes, of course I accept the theory of evolution, and the geological age of the universe. These things are facts. Yes, I believe you can have it both ways. I'm not a member of a religion that feels compelled to insist that the universe was literally created 6,000 years ago over the course of 6 days in the first place.
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02-07-2016, 10:53 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(02-07-2016 12:55 PM)Armageddon it Wrote:  I have tried to talk to certain family members about religion, science, and evolution, but I feel the discussion can go no further at this point. The topic was broached not by me, but by family asking if I believed in JC. While I've been very careful to avoid confrontational statements or questions, the topic of evolution has been a difficult one. There was a tone of anger, and I have the vision of Richard Dawkins imitating a certain person with "Show me the evidence, show me the evidence." It really was very close to that conversation. The real discussions began about 2 weeks ago, and there has been about an hour total of these topics since that time for having to tip-toe.

I just don't think I can go any further with family. If I want any semblance of familial relation, I have to let it go.

Any thoughts or recommendations?

Tell them you don't wish to discuss the matter any further. If they keep bringing it up tell them what you believe and why. That's all you can do. And remind them that you did not wish to discuss it any more. Remember, you do not have to justify your position to them if you are not asking them to agree with you.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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03-07-2016, 06:51 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(02-07-2016 10:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  No, I don't forgo my belief in a G-d, but I don't see what compromise that means I'm supposed to have to make.
I'm afraid I still can't understand your position on this Aliza. If you claim to believe in the existence of a supernatural entity, how then can you fully encompass the tenets of science—which absolutely deny this purported existence? There's a more than obvious clash of your beliefs here, which is why I asked you about compromises.

Quote:Yes, of course I accept the theory of evolution, and the geological age of the universe. These things are facts. Yes, I believe you can have it both ways. I'm not a member of a religion that feels compelled to insist that the universe was literally created 6,000 years ago over the course of 6 days in the first place.
Again, I'm confused. Seemingly you rely on "facts" to confirm the age of the planet and the theory of evolution. But... when it comes to believing in gods, you don't require any "facts" at all. None of the empirical theories that science, for one, demands—just a vague, unevidenced notion that gods exist.

I'd also like to ask you why you type G-d in these comments? To me that indicates that you belive that there's only one single God (capitalised) but presumes to deny the existence of any/all other gods (as I use the word). Do you personally believe that only the Christian god exists? And if so, why?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-07-2016, 07:09 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(03-07-2016 06:51 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 10:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  No, I don't forgo my belief in a G-d, but I don't see what compromise that means I'm supposed to have to make.
I'm afraid I still can't understand your position on this Aliza. If you claim to believe in the existence of a supernatural entity, how then can you fully encompass the tenets of science—which absolutely deny this purported existence? There's a more than obvious clash of your beliefs here, which is why I asked you about compromises.

Quote:Yes, of course I accept the theory of evolution, and the geological age of the universe. These things are facts. Yes, I believe you can have it both ways. I'm not a member of a religion that feels compelled to insist that the universe was literally created 6,000 years ago over the course of 6 days in the first place.
Again, I'm confused. Seemingly you rely on "facts" to confirm the age of the planet and the theory of evolution. But... when it comes to believing in gods, you don't require any "facts" at all. None of the empirical theories that science, for one, demands—just a vague, unevidenced notion that gods exist.

I'd also like to ask you why you type G-d in these comments? To me that indicates that you belive that there's only one single God (capitalised) but presumes to deny the existence of any/all other gods (as I use the word). Do you personally believe that only the Christian god exists? And if so, why?

She's Jewish, not Christian. I have heard (and maybe I'm wrong) that writing G-d is a way of showing respect to God in the Jewish religion. Just like some Christians may call God, Lord.

Why can't someone believe in science and religion if they view religion more as a spiritual path and less about magic? I don't think I have ever seen Aliza use magic as a way to explain science.

BTW, I hope it's okay that I'm responding to your post to Aliza. Big Grin I had a similar convo on here with someone else about yoga and that I do view it as a spiritual practice. And yet, I am an atheist.
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