The final discussion... for now.
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06-07-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 04:45 PM)jennybee Wrote:  She's not trying to prove the existence of her God with science. She's sciencing when she's at school. Wink Her spirituality exists outside of her educational pursuits. She wants to be a science teacher, I think she had said in the past anyway? She's going to be teaching science, not her religious beliefs. If her religious beliefs never enter the classroom, what difference does it make?

Bingo.
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06-07-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 04:45 PM)jennybee Wrote:  She's not trying to prove the existence of her God with science. She's sciencing when she's at school. Wink Her spirituality exists outside of her educational pursuits. She wants to be a science teacher, I think she had said in the past anyway? She's going to be teaching science, not her religious beliefs. If her religious beliefs never enter the classroom, what difference does it make?

Indeed, Jenny, she said exactly the opposite. She said that it is a tradition, and a tradition that holds that God is something beyond the realm of science-- that part of that tradition says where their beliefs contradict science, it is the beliefs that are wrong.

God is not something that can (or should) be demonstrated by science, or it is by definition not supernatural. Supernatural can loosely be defined as "that which is beyond our ability to detect among the natural forces of which we are aware".

Now we who stick to empiricism as our only means of looking at the world might find that silly... but I find lots of things humans like to do silly. I find sports fanatics to be utterly ludicrous, for instance. (No offense intended to anyone.) We should also not underestimate the importance of the culture of religion to which she belongs, and the sense of identity it gives to people of that heritage and belief system. It is only when/if Jews start using those beliefs to harm others that we must or should take umbrage-- I would argue that much of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict falls under that category, because of the policies of the Zionist members of that government (same on the other side of the fence, of course).

The claims made by the Jewish tradition, in the Torah, are often demonstrably wrong-- famous examples are the Exodus and the Great Flood. But every Jew to whom I have spoken on the subject says the same thing, that their tradition is that of humans trying to understand God, and unfortunately inserting many of their own biases into the process, which is why they strive to better understand that relationship with the Creator, even to this day. Whereas the evangelical Christians see it all as literal and unquestionably true, and therefore must cherry-pick in order to avoid cognitive dissonance, the way I see Jews looking at the scriptures is that of "best guess" status by imperfect people, which allows them to be honest about what parts they reject and which parts they accept.

I know that many of the die-hard skeptics in here will take issue with that, but I don't see it as an issue or a reason to disdain the people who are religious, other than to wonder why they need it at all.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-07-2016, 05:10 PM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2016 06:49 PM by Aliza.)
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 04:34 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 11:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  As far as I’m aware, the tenants of science neither confirm nor deny the existence of (my) G-d. I don’t see how my religious views clash with science at all. Judaism teaches that G-d spoke to Moses and told the Jewish people to behave in a certain way. This has nothing to do with evolution or the age of the universe. Okay, but to be fair, I do have to compartmentalize when I’m studying science because it’s very clear to me that a) my religious views are not universally accepted, and more importantly, b) science is about things you can observe and test. When I study Judaism, no compartmentalizing is required. When I’m speaking with fellow Jews, we have a common belief system, and we do not deny scientific facts. (Okay, most of us don’t. I have met a few that cannot comprehend the science one bit.)


I rely on facts to confirm the age of the planet, because the facts are available and my religion does not require me to disregard this kind of evidence. In fact, Maimonides taught in the 1100’s that if the science is in, and it disagrees with what we thought the Torah was saying, then we must have misunderstood the Torah. Oops! The truth is, I believe in my G-d because it makes sense to me. The pitch was made, I liked what the Rabbis had to say and I bought into it. That’s it. It really doesn’t involve anyone else. Just a little thought project here: If you have a disease, and the best doctor for your illness happens to be Hindu, are you going to ask her to validate her religious beliefs before you allow her to write you the prescription you need? I don’t know, maybe you would, but I think most people would base their trust on her credentials and medical reviews. Her religious beliefs probably never even come up in conversation, yet she is still a medical doctor and also a theist.


To be clear, I believe in the Jewish G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as described in the Torah. I do not believe in or follow the gods of any other culture. I do not believe in the Christian god, I think the Christian man-god, Jesus, is a colossal douchebag and a traitor. That’s my opinion. Jennybee said it perfectly, the dash is a sign of respect. Typing the word that way is kind of automatic for me, and I type the word so often on this forum that it just became too much of a hassle to have to go back and replace all my dashes with o’s.

SO you are saying yoyu prefer the G-d of the Old Testament who wandered around the desert killing every one who got in His way to an itinerant teacher who taught love for every one? Is that what I am hearing here? I could follow the teachings of Jesus if I didn't have to believe in the magic of drinking his blood to live for ever.

Well... hmm... I believe in the Jewish G-d as described in all of the Jewish texts, which is far more expansive than just the Hebrew Scriptures. The "Old Testament" is a poorly translated version of the Hebrew Scriptures which is often quoted out of context and used to try to make people believe in Jesus.

So yes, you can keep your Jesus. I'll take Judaism. It makes me happier anyway.
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06-07-2016, 05:26 PM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2016 05:31 PM by jennybee.)
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 05:10 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 04:34 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  SO you are saying yoyu prefer the G-d of the Old Testament who wandered around the desert killing every one who got in His way to an itinerant teacher who taught love for every one? Is that what I am hearing here? I could follow the teachings of Jesus if I didn't have to believe in the magic of drinking his blood to live for ever.

Well... hmm... I believe in the Jewish G-d as described in all of the Jewish texts, which is far more expansive than just the Hebrew Scriptures. The "Old Testament" is a poorly translated version of the Hebrew Scriptures which is often quoted out of context and used to try to make people believe in Jesus.

So yes, you can keep your Jesus. I'll take Judaism. It make me happier anyway.

Jesus wasn't all that great in the NT. I know many Christians who had nightmares from Revelation. It's like A Stephen King novel Laugh out load

Revelation 14


"I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man (AKA Jesus) with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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06-07-2016, 05:56 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 05:26 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Jesus wasn't all that great in the NT. I know many Christians who had nightmares from Revelation. It's like A Stephen King novel Laugh out load

(In case it doesn't work, starting at the right time, start the video at 2:30 or so.)





Brian is reading the Bible and laughing
I plead for him to cut it out
But he's giggling loud, he starts to cry
He's turning red, I don't know why
He's like a goddamn neon billboard saying "Hey y'all, we're super high"
I ask him what his problem is
And what's making him laugh
He points to a verse that says
The Lord opened up the mouth of an ass
Oh my God, that's super gross!
Why the hell is that in there?
My mom shushes both of us
And people turn around and stare
I take the book from Brian
The choir begins to sing
It dawns on me that I've never actually read this thing
I opened up the pages, and then start flipping through
I find it calms me down and gives my mind something to do
It says some beautiful things about forgiveness and love
'til I get to the end when God comes back
Wilds out, and straight up fucks Earth up!
Holy shit, did you know this?

Read this last part, what the fuck?
Spoiler alert, God comes back with dragons
And murders everyone!

What happened to the lovey-dovey stuff from the other verse?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-07-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 02:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 11:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don’t see how my religious views clash with science at all. Judaism teaches that G-d spoke to Moses and told the Jewish people to behave in a certain way.
This is a common non sequitur that many theists rely upon to state their case. You're presupposing that your god exists. It's a fallacy of logic.

Yes, I am presupposing that the Jewish G-d exists. I am perfectly comfortable with this presupposition and I don't believe that it intrudes on anyone else's liberty in any way.

(06-07-2016 02:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 11:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Okay, but to be fair, I do have to compartmentalize when I’m studying science because it’s very clear to me that a) my religious views are not universally accepted, and more importantly, b) science is about things you can observe and test.

And this is precisely one of the "compromises" I refereed to Aliza. You're being fully honest neither to your religion, nor your science. And one of them is suffering because of this.

I get to decide if I'm being fully honest to my religion. Being honest to my science is the only one that should concern anyone else because the goal for me is to be a science teacher. If you can show me how my religion impacts my science, then I would actually be very interested to hear about it so I can change the way I do things.

(06-07-2016 02:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 11:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  When I study Judaism, no compartmentalizing is required. When I’m speaking with fellow Jews, we have a common belief system, and we do not deny scientific facts.
Sorry, but you do (maybe inadvertently?). A scientific "fact" is that supernatural entities do not exist. There is zero empirical evidence—despite thousands of years of positive belief—that gods exist in the real world.

As I posted here, we disagree on the definition of what science is.

(06-07-2016 02:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 11:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Just a little thought project here: If you have a disease, and the best doctor for your illness happens to be Hindu, are you going to ask her to validate her religious beliefs before you allow her to write you the prescription you need?

Definitely not. The writing of the prescription is for drugs that science (not her) has confirmed will cure my illness. (And I'm referring here to a general practitioner, or MD.) The fact that the doctor believes in the existence of Ganesha, Vishnu, or Lakshmi doesn't impinge in any way on my faith [sic] in the scientific method. On the other hand, if she wrote me a script for an ayurvedic medicine—such as a rasa shastra compound—I'd be out the door in a flash!

But she’s not prescribing a rasa shastra compound. She’s prescribing medication that has been tested and proven effective. The things she thinks in her head about her religion never enter the conversation in her office. She has effectively mastered the art of separating her religious views from her medicine.

(06-07-2016 02:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 11:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  To be clear, I believe in the Jewish G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as described in the Torah. I do not believe in or follow the gods of any other culture. I do not believe in the Christian god, I think the Christian man-god, Jesus, is a colossal douchebag and a traitor.
Ouch! So you 're saying that the god that 1.6 billion Muslims worship doesn't exist? Why should the Abrahamic god exist, but not the Islamic god? Do you also disbelieve in the other estimated 22,000 gods across the planet? And what about Aphrodite, Obatala, Quetzalcoatl, Izanagi, Ra, Freya, Jupiter, and Mithras to name a few? All figments of the imagination? All non-existent? Why is yours (apparently) the one and only god?

You asked for my position only for the Christian god, so that is the question that I answered.

The answer to your next question is a bit more muddled. Jews believe that Judaism is a way of life and a theology that is meant only for Jews. We believe that G-d speaks to other religions and cultures in different ways and the litmus test that Jews use to determine whether the religion is valid is if its idolatrous or if it condones breaking any of the seven laws of Noah. If the laws are upheld, then we’d view it as a valid, “G-d given” religion (or culture, way of life, etc). If the laws are broken, then we’d say it’s not a valid “G-d given” religion.

I have a question for you in return. Do you think my religious views impact you or anyone else?
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06-07-2016, 06:37 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 05:56 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 05:26 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Jesus wasn't all that great in the NT. I know many Christians who had nightmares from Revelation. It's like A Stephen King novel Laugh out load

(In case it doesn't work, starting at the right time, start the video at 2:30 or so.)





Brian is reading the Bible and laughing
I plead for him to cut it out
But he's giggling loud, he starts to cry
He's turning red, I don't know why
He's like a goddamn neon billboard saying "Hey y'all, we're super high"
I ask him what his problem is
And what's making him laugh
He points to a verse that says
The Lord opened up the mouth of an ass
Oh my God, that's super gross!
Why the hell is that in there?
My mom shushes both of us
And people turn around and stare
I take the book from Brian
The choir begins to sing
It dawns on me that I've never actually read this thing
I opened up the pages, and then start flipping through
I find it calms me down and gives my mind something to do
It says some beautiful things about forgiveness and love
'til I get to the end when God comes back
Wilds out, and straight up fucks Earth up!
Holy shit, did you know this?

Read this last part, what the fuck?
Spoiler alert, God comes back with dragons
And murders everyone!

What happened to the lovey-dovey stuff from the other verse?

Laugh out load

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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07-07-2016, 07:23 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(06-07-2016 03:06 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm not aware that science denies God or the supernatural. They are simply irrelevant. [...]
True. Science doesn't need to "deny" the existence of gods or the supernatural. It's a given—in the same way it's not required to deny leprechauns or fairies or unicorns.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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28-07-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
"""I get to decide if I'm being fully honest to my religion. """

Actually you don't get to decide if you have been. You either have been or you haven't. Your opinion is irrelevant.

""""Judaism teaches that G-d spoke to Moses and told the Jewish people to behave in a certain way."""

Just take some time and think about how that communication even works.

Human learn language together overtime by agreeing certain sounds point to certain things or feelings. How did the g-d even learn the language, did it practice with something? Does it have vocal cords? Is it in human form?

Just exactly how can the god "Speak" to Moses?

Why don't you feel the need to justify first whether either character actually exists (manifests) in reality before believing the two communicated in some fashion.

This just seems so clear to some of us. I wonder why the fact it's written in an old book provides meaning.
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28-07-2016, 02:04 PM
RE: The final discussion... for now.
(28-07-2016 01:06 PM)CONVERSIONTUBE Wrote:  
Aliza Wrote:I get to decide if I'm being fully honest to my religion.

Actually you don't get to decide if you have been. You either have been or you haven't. Your opinion is irrelevant.

Your opinion about my religious practice is even more irrelevant.

(28-07-2016 01:06 PM)CONVERSIONTUBE Wrote:  
Aliza Wrote:Judaism teaches that G-d spoke to Moses and told the Jewish people to behave in a certain way.

Just take some time and think about how that communication even works.

Human learn language together overtime by agreeing certain sounds point to certain things or feelings. How did the g-d even learn the language, did it practice with something? Does it have vocal cords? Is it in human form?

Just exactly how can the god "Speak" to Moses?

Jews don't believe that G-d has a mouth, so the term "speak" is metaphorical.

(28-07-2016 01:06 PM)CONVERSIONTUBE Wrote:  Why don't you feel the need to justify first whether either character actually exists (manifests) in reality before believing the two communicated in some fashion.

I don't feel the need to justify any of my religious beliefs to anyone at all. If I feel so inclined I'll answer questions, but if my answers aren't satisfactory to another person, then the subject is generally dropped.

If the other person doesn't like what I believe, and can't respect the difference in our views, then that person should consider fucking off.

(28-07-2016 01:06 PM)CONVERSIONTUBE Wrote:  This just seems so clear to some of us. I wonder why the fact it's written in an old book provides meaning.

So if it's clear to you, then you should not convert to Judaism. It probably just won't be a good fit for you and you're likely to be unhappy. Do what makes you happy and helps you to live an awesome and meaningful life.
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