The finality of death is not a good thing to me
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15-12-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
Over 44 million people have wondered this recently....




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15-12-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
Okay, let's break down the practicalities of effective human immortality.

First, there's the basic practicalities. How do we get past cancer, circulatory failure, immune system failure, disease, general enfeeblement, getting hit by trucks, and all the other things that keep us mortal? It's not enough to JUST replace hearts if pneumonia takes us out instead.

Having tackled that in theory and even empirically made it a reality, how do we apply it universally rather than it just being a hugely expensive luxury for the 1% of the 1%?

Having done that, what happens to population growth? We're already having trouble sustaining current population levels. What happens if there's no more dying? Can we feed everyone? Supply them with the gasoline they need to get from point A to point B? What happens when humans outnumber trees? How do we not asphyxiate? Are we uploading our minds into computers somehow? What happens when there's no more room for mainframes on the planet? We can't control our population with death, how do we control it without death?

But okay, let's say we get all that figured out. Zero population growth, or maybe a very controlled growth coupled with extraterrestrial expansion. (And it would have to be VERY controlled, because we're not going to expand quickly.)

What happens to human psychology after that? Is the human psyche even equipped to handle memories that go back multiple centuries, multiple millennia, multiple megayears? Would our instinctive fear of death stay with us even after it was obsolete? Would it heighten or diminish? Would our minds start breaking down into some obscene mix of delerium, amnesia, or psychosis? This is completely uncharted territory.

What happens to society? Currently we're straining to provide a representational government, simply because there's too many representatives for them to work together coherently and too few for them to get to know their constituents on a personal basis, save with token exceptions. If we control growth, what would a society with almost no children look like? What would conflicts between nations look like if no one could die? How would the end of death completely reshape human civilization?

Every single one of these questions could spawn a hundred novels belonging to the genre of dystopian fiction.

Now take all of those tasks, and ask yourself how long it's likely to be (if ever) before we get them solved.

Then ask yourself if there's at least a 10% chance of dying before then.

I figure it's at least 10% for me. Considerably higher, in fact. I'd guess it's considerably higher for you as well.

That means that whatever the long term prospects of human immortality might be (and I'd estimate them as pretty low, actually), you and I and most other people here should find ways to square ourselves with our own very present state of mortality. Maybe it won't be needed... but there's a very good chance that it will.
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15-12-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
Well, too bad.
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15-12-2016, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 15-12-2016 04:48 PM by SuperMarioGamer.)
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
(15-12-2016 03:47 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Okay, let's break down the practicalities of effective human immortality.

First, there's the basic practicalities. How do we get past cancer, circulatory failure, immune system failure, disease, general enfeeblement, getting hit by trucks, and all the other things that keep us mortal? It's not enough to JUST replace hearts if pneumonia takes us out instead.

Having tackled that in theory and even empirically made it a reality, how do we apply it universally rather than it just being a hugely expensive luxury for the 1% of the 1%?

Having done that, what happens to population growth? We're already having trouble sustaining current population levels. What happens if there's no more dying? Can we feed everyone? Supply them with the gasoline they need to get from point A to point B? What happens when humans outnumber trees? How do we not asphyxiate? Are we uploading our minds into computers somehow? What happens when there's no more room for mainframes on the planet? We can't control our population with death, how do we control it without death?

But okay, let's say we get all that figured out. Zero population growth, or maybe a very controlled growth coupled with extraterrestrial expansion. (And it would have to be VERY controlled, because we're not going to expand quickly.)

What happens to human psychology after that? Is the human psyche even equipped to handle memories that go back multiple centuries, multiple millennia, multiple megayears? Would our instinctive fear of death stay with us even after it was obsolete? Would it heighten or diminish? Would our minds start breaking down into some obscene mix of delerium, amnesia, or psychosis? This is completely uncharted territory.

What happens to society? Currently we're straining to provide a representational government, simply because there's too many representatives for them to work together coherently and too few for them to get to know their constituents on a personal basis, save with token exceptions. If we control growth, what would a society with almost no children look like? What would conflicts between nations look like if no one could die? How would the end of death completely reshape human civilization?

Every single one of these questions could spawn a hundred novels belonging to the genre of dystopian fiction.

Now take all of those tasks, and ask yourself how long it's likely to be (if ever) before we get them solved.

Then ask yourself if there's at least a 10% chance of dying before then.

I figure it's at least 10% for me. Considerably higher, in fact. I'd guess it's considerably higher for you as well.

That means that whatever the long term prospects of human immortality might be (and I'd estimate them as pretty low, actually), you and I and most other people here should find ways to square ourselves with our own very present state of mortality. Maybe it won't be needed... but there's a very good chance that it will.

The brain has a remarkable ability to adapt to situations. Therefore, I think this would even include the situation of living forever. So I don't think you could go insane from living forever. Now if there were an afterlife, then I don't think any of those problems you mentioned would exist.
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15-12-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
(15-12-2016 04:38 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 03:47 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Okay, let's break down the practicalities of effective human immortality.

First, there's the basic practicalities. How do we get past cancer, circulatory failure, immune system failure, disease, general enfeeblement, getting hit by trucks, and all the other things that keep us mortal? It's not enough to JUST replace hearts if pneumonia takes us out instead.

Having tackled that in theory and even empirically made it a reality, how do we apply it universally rather than it just being a hugely expensive luxury for the 1% of the 1%?

Having done that, what happens to population growth? We're already having trouble sustaining current population levels. What happens if there's no more dying? Can we feed everyone? Supply them with the gasoline they need to get from point A to point B? What happens when humans outnumber trees? How do we not asphyxiate? Are we uploading our minds into computers somehow? What happens when there's no more room for mainframes on the planet? We can't control our population with death, how do we control it without death?

But okay, let's say we get all that figured out. Zero population growth, or maybe a very controlled growth coupled with extraterrestrial expansion. (And it would have to be VERY controlled, because we're not going to expand quickly.)

What happens to human psychology after that? Is the human psyche even equipped to handle memories that go back multiple centuries, multiple millennia, multiple megayears? Would our instinctive fear of death stay with us even after it was obsolete? Would it heighten or diminish? Would our minds start breaking down into some obscene mix of delerium, amnesia, or psychosis? This is completely uncharted territory.

What happens to society? Currently we're straining to provide a representational government, simply because there's too many representatives for them to work together coherently and too few for them to get to know their constituents on a personal basis, save with token exceptions. If we control growth, what would a society with almost no children look like? What would conflicts between nations look like if no one could die? How would the end of death completely reshape human civilization?

Every single one of these questions could spawn a hundred novels belonging to the genre of dystopian fiction.

Now take all of those tasks, and ask yourself how long it's likely to be (if ever) before we get them solved.

Then ask yourself if there's at least a 10% chance of dying before then.

I figure it's at least 10% for me. Considerably higher, in fact. I'd guess it's considerably higher for you as well.

That means that whatever the long term prospects of human immortality might be (and I'd estimate them as pretty low, actually), you and I and most other people here should find ways to square ourselves with our own very present state of mortality. Maybe it won't be needed... but there's a very good chance that it will.

The brain has a remarkable ability to adapt to situations. Therefore, I think this would even include the situation of living forever. So I don't think you could go insane from living forever. Now if there were an afterlife, then I don't think any of those problems you mentioned would exist.

The brain does have a remarkable ability to adapt to situations, but many of those adaptations are sub-optimal. Phobias, PTSD, dissociative disorders, denial, all of these and more are adaptations to stimuli... and that's just what we see in the course of the normal lifespan of a brain. If we go from 70ish years on average to 7 billion plus years on average, we are extrapolating far, far, far beyond our dataset. The point I'm making is that we'd have no idea what would start going wrong there, because we have zero experience with it.

As for whether there would be those problems in any unindicated hypothetical afterlife that might exist... well, you're free to think whatever you want on it. But let me take a moment to ask WHY you think that none of these would be an issue. Is it just a vague, unsupported gut feeling, or is there some basis for thinking that?

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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15-12-2016, 06:43 PM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
We aren't well adapted yet to living as long as we do now. Used to be we lived into our 40s and died from illness or got ourselves killed. Our bodies didn't age as much as they do now because we never made it that far.

Now we die much slower. It's not that we just drop dead later, our bodies degenerate more and more over the years, so we actually just go through a prolonged dying process unless some illness or killing event takes us out sooner.

Just how much does one actually want to extend the phase of death? Lingering in a body that has a trip to the pot as the greatest achievement of the day is not for me.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-12-2016, 07:15 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2016 06:54 AM by KUSA.)
The finality of death is not a good thing to me
(15-12-2016 02:23 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  Therefore, the finality of death is a very bad thing to me.

What do you consider death to be? You die a cell at a time everyday. Every atom in your body is replaced every 7 or less years.

If you die in a few years from now, the person that you were worried about dying would have already died before the facsimile of you died.
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15-12-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
(15-12-2016 02:37 PM)SuperMarioGamer Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 02:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  There there. We all die eventually. Hey, you could die tomorrow Smile Or even in two minutes time Smile What would you like to do in the last two minutes of your life? I'm spending mine replying to you Tongue On the assumption, admittedly, that there are not the last two minutes of my life. If they really were I'd very much regret (except there wouldn't be a me to regret) spending them writing to some random stranger.

But wait. Science says that they will soon find a way to replace our organs. We will get to replace our hearts so we can extend our lives.

Replacing just your heart isn't gonna help.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-12-2016, 05:33 AM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
I'm the reincarnation of CHUCK NORRIS. Death isn't real.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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16-12-2016, 05:40 AM
RE: The finality of death is not a good thing to me
(16-12-2016 05:33 AM)Leo Wrote:  I'm the reincarnation of CHUCK NORRIS. Death isn't real.

Umm...the first incarnation of Chuck Norris isn't dead yet. Drinking Beverage

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